Licencing an O map to a 3rd party

[Paul Frost]

Difficult to think of a short title to match the subject.

EckO have had a few requests from 3rd parties that want to have/use copies of some of our maps and I am trying to find out if there are any other clubs that have sorted out a good system for payment.

There are a couple of outdoor centres that would like to have copies of the Ocad file so that they can print and plan courses to suit.
We have 2 permanent courses at forestry commission locations. One wants to be able to print maps at will (they have a colour laser printer on site) and give them away. The other doesn't know what it wants but doesn't have an office on site.
If we allow them to be given away by the FC it would be difficult to sell them elsewhere.

So we thought that some sort of licence fee could be paid per annum in exchange for supplying them with updated versions of the map. But how much is reasonable?

What we don't want, is them to just buy a few copies of the map and then go off and get 100's of colour photocopies. So we need to keep some control and earn some money to fund future updates.

So has anyone got something like this working in their club?

[PorkyFatBoy]

SUFFOC proposed a licence arrangement for a school - Clive Coles may still have the details if you PM him. I think they also had some arangements for the Army to use some of their maps too under licence. RedAdder may have the details of that.

[NeilC]

Negotiate payment in kind - eg free or reduced access fees for club events held on those areas.

[widdershins]

Paul

Not an easy one. Certainly we FVO give away a couple of our permanent courses on the web; but sell others via various people including the Forestry Commission (giving them a profit in the process). We've also had approaches from outdoor centres wanting to "buy a map" - and its clear that they aimed to run the map through the photocopier. Had to tell them the facts of life.

Various thoughts ...

Our standard charges are on a per map basis; rather than a yearly licence.

Do they have an estimate of how many they might use - so you might manage to make a leap from "per map" (which is where I guess we all start), to an annual fee.

Or some sort of estimate re the ongoing remapping costs to keep the map fresh; re their usage of it; against your other usages of the map. And ask them to meet a fair share?

Would they keep any rough tally and pay you afterwards on usage. Might be per map, but you could think about minimum and maximum payments?

Good luck

David

[Knee Deep Mud!]

From memory, I think our club have used a variety of methods based on who is asking for the map:
1) We produce maps for them at x pence per map (most often used route when maps are required for a specific event).
2) Payment in kind.
3) Funding of some / all of the survey costs, or other form of similar level of flat fee.
4) A combination of the above.

Depending on who is asking for the map, what they want it for, & the funding option used, we would give
1) paper copies only (most often used route when maps are required for a specific small event), or for some permanent courses.
2) a JPEG image at suitable quality, for some permanent courses, where the site owner wants the facility to print maps themselves.
3) the full OCAD - generally only where this was agreed up front as part of the funding deal, or where we are dealing with known people / neighbouring orienteering clubs & where payment in kind is likely to come into play.
4) Don't give them the map - if the funding / usage limitations are not agreed.

[Red Adder]

SuffOC has devised a policy for this whereby we license either a single event or (in the case of schools using park maps), a permanent license, which is in reality lasts a year or so, until the map starts to age. The fee depends on the customer and the type of event they wish to use it for but as yet the amounts have been modest (as other schools or clubs have been involved) and are ploughed straight back in to the expenses of developing our maps. A more lucrative venture involved producing bespoke maps based on our existing forests, but with a modified symbol set, for an team score "adventure race" for a company.

In each case though the customer must agree to our terms and conditions which basically limit to use to a specific event or whatever, assert our copyright and precedence over use of the map and insist that the user fully co-operates with the landowners etc so as not to jeopardise future use.

We still get several requests for maps but as these would be no use to us now we charge print cost + with no sale or return.

We are also wary of loaning out OCAD files, and in fact have not done so outside the O community. With a bit of effort I found that jpegs or even ppts give most users a very acceptable map and so have used them.

If you pass maps outside the O community I think you have to take your own steps to protect your copyright but I think BO could help and offer to guarentee copyright internally to encourage more map sharing between clubs.

[greywolf]

a contrary point of view (cos it's friday night and i've just finished a 2nd pint of V & T )

what are you attempting to achieve by charging? to restrict the supply of orienteering maps, and thus the number of folk exposed to the sport??

I have spent (too) many years in forestry and land management and this has taught me a) to bitterly resent OS ripoff business practices having to pay stupid amounts of money for a not very good map of my own country b) that O maps are not much good for anything else...

and furthermore once an area is routegadegeted the map is available free to anyone with an internet connection and a brain

so by all means keep Ocad files safe, and charge (to recoup your printing costs) for paper maps & if you can get adventure racers or anyone else to pay you to produce bespoke maps for their events then that's great - but shouldn't our basic premise be to publicise the sport as widely as possible? and that has to include distributing the maps..

[Paul Frost]

Thanks for the responses, it confirms my thoughts that there is no easy answer.

As with most things in life the value of something is only what someone is prepared to pay for it. So one group might think £300 year is reasonable for access to a regularly updated Ocad file whilst another will think £50 is expensive.

It would have been nice to be able to lay out a set of charges and be transparent, but I think the the end result will be that we negotiate every request and set the price/ conditions that the group/company feel acceptable.

To Greywolf:
I sort of agree with you about our aim to increase orienteering and not restrict it, but:

If we can earn some money from existing maps it will help fund the mapping of new areas.

There is also the view that something you give away is not valued.

The outdoor centres that would like access to the Ocad map is so they can use the free version of Ocad to plan courses and print maps as required (I know they can use a JPG but the quality is better).
They are commercial companies that charge for the courses they run and probably make a profit. Is it not reasonable that they should contribute towards a map, without which they couldn't run the course.

In another case we had been asked to put in a permanent course so that it could be used as tourist attraction by the landowner. The club is not likely to get new members from this sort of project as it is aimed at visitors to the area.

The quality of the map image used in RouteGadget is not normally good enough for printing, it it only 72dpi where you you want 300dpi at least for printing.

To NeilC:
We don't pay for land access in Scotland, so payment in kind not much of an option, but will think about what else they could give us.

[openadventure]

Couldn't agree more with Greywolf - it seems odd to spend so much time and effort to provide "come and try events" and allsorts of publicity in attempt to get more beginners in to orienteering but then to restrict access to maps.

In terms to you comment "There is also the view that something you give away is not valued." I'd suggest that google earth / maps is valued yet its free in its basic form and for google promotes its brand. The value in orienteering is the event / the planning / the timing / the results / the competition / the people - I can't get any of that by going for a run on the moor on my own and thats what I pay for at an event.

How refreshing would it be to travel to an area print off a local O map with no controls and go for a run - OK restrictions would have to be in place for areas that lack Open Access.

I'd suggest you make your money elsewhere not on those that fancy giving the sport a try.

Don't distribute the OCAD file keep it to hi res tiffs or JPEGS - I'd even say with local outdoor centres / FC areas you should contract your services for a cheap rate to produce the maps. Keep your logo web addresses on the maps.

If you do want to restrict commercial use - a short clear note on the map will prevent any company using it without paying a fee. But don't get greedy and don't send them a dodgy photocopy like what I got for an event I ran last year (and paid per map used).

James..

[Clive Coles]

Paul

I see I have been identified as someone who had negotiated a licence agreement for a school map ~ it wasn't actually as formal as that.

Our club agreed to produce a map of a school campus together with the school owned estate that surrounded the school itself. Nice little area large enough to support a 5k circuit.

I was happy to take it on as a training assignment ~ I had never attempted to establish a map from scratch.

As the school was a private boarding & day school with lots of activities at weekends and Sunday Chapel, the club realised the map was very unlikely to ever be used for a public O competition. It was therefore produced for the school as a goodwill gesture in the hope that Orienteering would become established as a school activity.

The club agreed to give the cartography to the school in exchange for a flat fee. They did not want the responsibility of printing maps or maintaining the cartography.

The fee (£165) covered my mapping time and fuel costs ( which were passed on to myself) plus a surplus which you could say was an undocumented licence arrangement. This was the clubs cut.

The map was developed on OCAD 7 and downversioned to OCAD 6. The school installed OCAD 6 as this version was freeware. They print their own maps and in all probability a 6th former has already adapted the cartography to add the new music complex.

A one off exercise really ~ a convenient solution for a given set of circumstances.

[Paul Frost]

In terms to you comment "There is also the view that something you give away is not valued." I'd suggest that google earth / maps is valued yet its free in its basic form and for google promotes its brand.

Don't forget Google makes it's money from the adverts that accompany the "free" maps.

How refreshing would it be to travel to an area print off a local O map with no controls and go for a run - OK restrictions would have to be in place for areas that lack Open Access.

I have actually suggested that Ocad files could be available to anyone in a previous thread and we have had conversations about doing it with SOA maps. But access issues still make this difficult to implement.

...I'd even say with local outdoor centres / FC areas you should contract your services for a cheap rate to produce the maps.

That is exactly what the original question was aimed at.

If you do want to restrict commercial use - a short clear note on the map will prevent any company using it without paying a fee.

I'm sure that no one you know has ever photocopied/scanned an OS map without obtaining permission

But don't get greedy and don't send them a dodgy photocopy like what I got for an event I ran last year (and paid per map used).

That's exactly why I want to provide an Ocad map file if possible, to ensure that people get a good impression of our sport.
So yes we want to promote our sport, but mapping costs money, the question is what is the best way to raise the funds, and this is one avenue to explore and the reason for starting the thread.

[greywolf]

The quality of the map image used in RouteGadget is not normally good enough for printing, it it only 72dpi where you you want 300dpi at least for printing.

have just tried this with a couple of samples - it seems the routegadget maps are blown up and with a bit of play in Potatoshop you can print off at 144dpi - the results aren't good enough for a TD5 course in the complex bits of Culbin, but would be perfectly adequate for somewhere like Devilla

[openadventure]

Paul

OK I think we need to disagree. I'm not sure I subscribe to the paranoia that companies who could commercially use O maps would delibrately avoid payment. Its just not worth any of their reputation to do so. I suspect that a few Management Training companies do but I suspect its more out of naievity than anything else and a CLEAR notice on the map could resolve that. Its the same situation with electronic mapping like Anquet / Memory Map / etc who make money from comercial licenses of their products.

At the very least a quick phone call would no doubt resolve any problems.

In reference to Google - I and many others use their API on our website to direct competitors to events. Many company's use it for vehicle / personal tracking - and there is a handy O event tool that uses it. I've yet to see an advert appear on the map - yet it is free and for commercial use (to a limit). Its a subtle but effective way of promoting their brand.

Re the free OCAD maps - I suspect there is a considerble number of people who orienteer that just do the occasional event, along with a bit of road running, maybe dare I say Adventure Racing or MTBing or walking in the hills. I suspect that make up a large number - I'd fit in that bracket. Whilst I'm happy to pull off a flat JPEG I'm not sure I really want to delve in to the murky world of OCAD - let alone try and persude a club that my use of their OCAD file whilst on holiday in the area is genuine.

Shame though even if British Orienteering could allow the download of blank maps for a paultry sum I'm sure the take up would be considerble.

Anyway lets disagree - giving away maps is far too revolutionary.

[Clive Coles]

Another question to develop this topic. What about OS copyright ?

I understood It used to be the case that the BOF agreement with the OS covered only the creation of printed maps that were based on OS cartography.

When, some 4 years ago, our club co-operated with the Forestry Commission regarding the provision of a Education CD for issue to Primary schools in our County the OS collected an additional fee from us to allow the POC map to be distributed electronically.

We now seem to be drifting into holding maps on web sites. Are we putting ourselves at risk over copyright issues ?

FC have recently asked me if they can put our Permanent O Courses on their regional web site. I have promised to get back to them in the new year.

But many of these maps are based on OS cartography. Has anyone any recent experience of how the OS regard this trend to display maps on the web ?

If memory serves me correctly , I thought BOF and the OS were "failing to agree" over copyright fees. I don't think this matter has been cleared up as yet.

[graeme]

As an amateur mapper (both in the payment and quality sense), I like to hold on to my own copyright rather than give it to a club. And I like to give my maps away to anyone who wants them. In my opinion, the damage done by people's first exposure to "orienteering" being some crappy photocopy is much greater than the financial loss.

Others disagree, of course.