Level 1 Regional Championships (trophies and titles)

[Clive Coles]

I'm quite happy tp go along with Neil for now. I assume Neil you are the Niel of the Rules group and therefore have insight as to what has been considered by that committee

The current regional championships are corrently closed ~ let's stick with this for now

i would be disappointed however if some regions went a difffernt way and made them Open.

As these events are some of the key quality events in our new fixture programme it would be a shame if they were not staged in the same way.

Perhaps the final edition of Rules and Guidelines will include a statement regarding this matter. That's what I am now looking for ~ enough of drafts let's have some some final versions . Just 2 weeks to go and we enter the "new Age"

[NeilC]

Perhaps the final edition of Rules and Guidelines will include a statement regarding this matter. That's what I am now looking for ~ enough of drafts let's have some some final versions . Just 2 weeks to go and we enter the "new Age"

From the BOF website Major Topics Page

2009 is a transition year and the new structure will commence in its entirety from January 2010

Thus 54 weeks not 2. That will hopefully be long enough for the rankings working party to fully consult and implement a revised system. Some clubs are using the draft guidelines to put on the new style regional events in 2009 and feedback from them will help produce a set of final guidelines that hopefully will have had operating problems ironed out.

[awk]

The intention of the ERSG was that these events (which we called Area Championships, NOT Regional Championships, to avoid mixing up with regional associations) would be open, as they were before National Events came in. The expectation which we discussed was that there would be 'closed' winners as well, just as at the Scottish Championships.
So, effectively, a rebranding and streamlining of the National Events, including a UK Cup type event for all seniors, not just M/w21s.

That was the intention, but given all the other twisting around going on, I'm not holding my breath. There shouldn't even be a need for this discussion, it should have been made clear by now, only 17 days from the start of the new scheme. My own view is that closed championships on their own with 'outsiders' non-competitive would be a dead duck. They certainly shouldn't be 'National', i.e. Level 1 events if that was the case.

[SJC]

The intention of the ERSG was that these events (which we called Area Championships, NOT Regional Championships, to avoid mixing up with regional associations) would be open, as they were before National Events came in.

Well, perhaps it would have helped had they not written:

Appendix C-Event Structure Review Group – Revised Guideline for: Level 1 Age-Class Championship Events.

Who May Compete: Any National or Local Member of British Orienteering may compete, however awards may be restricted to those associated with the Championship region.

[DaveK]

[quote

Some clubs are using the draft guidelines to put on the new style regional events in 2009 and feedback from them will help produce a set of final guidelines that hopefully will have had operating problems ironed out.

][/quote]
Saxons are doing this with the first regional event of 2009 on 4th January at Eridge Park, near Tunbridge Wells, Kent - scene of last year's (snowy) JK relay. Be interesting to see how it goes.

[awk]

Well, perhaps it would have helped had they not written.....

Yes, you're right. I never spotted that.

[Clive Coles]

Looks therefore it will be an interesting year in 2009. Transition, experimentation or confusion.

We will obviously be working with a draft set of rules for now.

Orienteering will probably survive ~ we will just get on with organisising our events as scheduled.

We in our region are not rushing to put on more Regional events next year, We only had 3 planned for each of the next 2 years anyway.

The old District style event has served us well, It suits the numbers of participants we attract and the land to which we have access. And we provide adequate facility levels for attendees at a price of a senior entry of around £7.

If folk want to travel to more regional events outside of their area that's their option. As i was told at the last National Fixyures Meeting " let market forces determine our orienteering preferences".

We are currently planning to preserve the Regional branding for our headline events of the season.

So when you see that most East Anglian events are local this does not mean they are all "runs around a park". Most will be providing 7 or more colour coded courses on up to date maps. The courses will be well planned and controlled by an experienced grade 2 or grade 3 controller.

When I get to find out what our new on-line fixture entry systen looks like I will try to find a way of indentifying which local events allow a discount on production of a BOF card.

I gather the BOF Board is going to make up their mind on discounts at their meeting this week. I hope they rule in favour of discounted rates continuing, We have found it helps to persuade newcomers to join a club. If they plan to attend more than 3 events anywhere in our region in a seasom they are in pocket if the join BOF as a local member.

Of course opinions may be changed once we find out how the ranking system will work. The report from the review committees not though expected until sometime next year


Clive

[Neil M40]

M21L Results of 2008 Northern Champs, Arncliffe, 17 Feb 2008 (in their entirety)

1/Tom Bray/UDOC/M21/1:18:38
2/Ben Smith/UDOC/M21/1:41:59
3/Stuart Hooton/EBOR/M20/1:47:56
4/Kris Smith/UNOC/1:52:44

DNF/Ben Goodacre/UNOC/M21/mp

M21A Results of 1982 Northern Champs, only a few miles away at Hutton Lowcross, 28 March 1982 (top 20 only)

1/Robert Bloor/LIVUOC/75:20
2/Geoff Peck/SN/78:16
3/Adrian Pickles/SYO/79:49
4/Rob Pearson/SYO/82:06
5/Alan Bradley/SYO/82:46
6/Brian Bullen/CH/83:34
7/Jim Doig/GRAMP/83:39
8/Steve Barrett/FVO/83:48
9/Tim Tett/SHUOC/84:14
10=/Graham McIntyre/BOK/84:16
10=/Eddie Harwood/HOC/84:16
12/A Thornton/StAUOC/84:33
13/Mark Elgood/SN/85:13
14/Dave Armitage/GRAMP/85:34
15/Maurice Calvert/AIRE/86:03
16/J Baston/DEE/86:36
17/Tony Thornley/DEE/86:50
18/S Nesbitt/MH/86:52
19/A Curtis/ESOC/87:04
20/S West/CUOC/88:29

The status of a closed Northern Champs is not even sufficient to attract runners from all the Northern regions, whereas the open champs attracted competitors from across the North, as well as Scotland and the deep South. And the runners that were there were among the best in the country - Rob Bloor, Geoff Peck, Alan Bradley, Adrian Pickles, Graham McIntyre, Brian Bullen were all in the top 10 at the JK (in Berkshire) two weeks earlier. There were similarly competitive fields drawn from across the country at all the championship races that year - Southern Champs on 25 April, Scottish Champs on 1 May, British Champs 16 May, Midland Champs 23 May. And it is not just M21 - the same applies across all the classes.

Perhaps more of a like with like comparison would be with a March National Event

Sarum National Event, Big Wood, 9 March 2008

1/Tuomas Tala/TVOC/M35/1:32:53
2/John Hartley/WSX/M21/1:39:30
3/Paul Couldridge/BAOC/M21/1:40:38
4/Ben Stevens/AIRE/M21/1:41:43
5/Ben Chesters/SARUM/M21/1:42:20
6/Mark Saunders/BOK/M45/1:45:02
7/Matthias Mahr/SLOW/M21/1:49:50
8/Kostya Lutsenko/CHIG/M21/1:52:27
9/Tim Britton/BOK/M21/1:52:39
10/Neville Baker/TVOC/M55/1:58:03
11/Keith Agmen/BOK/M21/1:58:11
12/Samuel Massey/SOC/M21/2:08:32
13/Tim Beale/OUOC/M21/2:09:54
14/Mark Rowe/MV/M21/2:12:13
15/Andrew Brown/SLOW/M21/2:15:09
DNF/Chris Illman/SARUM/M21/1:33:24
DNF/Andrew Rowe/POTOC/M21/1:41:54

Only 2 runners from outside the southern regions, and one of those was only there because he is at University down there somewhere.

We can't reproduce the large fields we had in the early 80s because there simply aren't the runners, but we should have more races that attract the best runners available. I don't really care whether they are called area championships or something different, and whether closed area championships are incorporated, or even the format of the race, as long as it is genuinely competitive. To my mind this means
1. Status for the winners, a title, a prize, a prizegiving, recognition in BOF website/Focus/CompassSport
2. High quality event in terms of terrain, courses, facilities
3. Part of a series to encourage participation outside of your own region/area
4. Not too many so that there are some people who will go to all events, and lots of people who will go to most.

[geomorph]

Both I and junior morph have 'won' trophies at closed championships (x-c and orienteering respectively). On the day we were the best eligible competitiors. I was 11th and junior was 6th, reasonable placings, but not winners of the actual race.
So whilst pleased to have achieved what we did its not the same as beating everybody who ran the same course.

As we are talking about Level 1 here then Open is the challenge level we should aspire to. Whether of not we then award age and region specific trophies is up to the region itself

[Gnitworp]

I ticked the 'revote' option box when I set up this poll so any 'NO' voters swayed by some of the powerful arguments above in favour of Open Championships can change their vote

[roadrunner]

As we are talking about Level 1 here then Open is the challenge level we should aspire to. Whether of not we then award age and region specific trophies is up to the region itself

Given the present age profile of orienteers, I think you'd find a considerably lower turnout if there weren't age group-specifc trophies (whether or not restricted to a given region, which is a separate issue). The very best M/W40-50s may be competitive in an open class, but there aren't that many of them. And, of course, the Open class is way beyond that capability of most juniors. I think there's a case, though, for reducing the number of age groups below what we have at the moment.

[NeilC]

The status of a closed Northern Champs is not even sufficient to attract runners from all the Northern regions, whereas the open champs attracted competitors from across the North, as well as Scotland and the deep South.

So by this logic the Scottish Champs, which are open, must be attracting a large field consisting of the best runners from all over the UK. Are they?
http://www.rstrain.ndtilda.co.uk/results_08/scot_champ/res.htm

[Gnitworp]

The status of a closed Northern Champs is not even sufficient to attract runners from all the Northern regions, whereas the open champs attracted competitors from across the North, as well as Scotland and the deep South.

So by this logic the Scottish Champs, which are open, must be attracting a large field consisting of the best runners from all over the UK. Are they?
http://www.rstrain.ndtilda.co.uk/results_08/scot_champ/res.htm

SOA website http://www.scottish-orienteering.org/in ... ships-soc/ says

Trophies shall be available to the first Scot in each age group. For this purpose members of Scottish open Clubs shall be automatically recognised as “Scots”. Other orienteers wishing to be classed as “Scottish”, such as those born in Scotland or long-term Scottish residents currently living outside Scotland or competing for their university, must make their status known to the organiser before the race

“Scots” are any one of the following

a] born in Scotland

b] have at least one Scottish parent

c] be a member of the Scottish Orienteering Association

Note the M21E, W21E and relay trophies are still for all comers.

For the M and W Elite classes there will be three trophies – Winner, Scottish Native Champion and best Scottish Orienteering Association Member. Scottish Native Champions must have been born in Scotland and not just member of a Scottish club.

i.e., not Open for all age classes like pre-1985 Northern, Midlands and Southern Championships were

[graeme]

The status of a closed Northern Champs is not even sufficient to attract runners from all the Northern regions, whereas the open champs attracted competitors from across the North, as well as Scotland and the deep South.

So by this logic the Scottish Champs, which are open, must be attracting a large field consisting of the best runners from all over the UK. Are they?

Winning men:

Murray Strain
Ben Hartman
Steve Nicholson
Martin Bagness
John Tullie
Eddie Harwood
Peter Gorvett
Neil McLean
Colin Spears
Roy Malley

Comfortably comparable with JK or British winners IMO, 40% English (as you'd expect from the VHI runner-up nation ) Numbers took a hit with it being so soon after BOC at Culbin.

So who don't you rate?

[NeilC]

Graeme, you know as well as anybody how badly data can be manipulated. So to play the same game:

If we all agree that a dozen entries on W21E (a truely open class), probably about half of whom are not W21, and none from further south than Yorkshire is what we aspire to for the open championships then go for it.

Not doubting that the selective list that was given are worthy winners but as Gnitworp reminded us it's only M/W21E that are open and so only these classes should be used to support the argument that having an open class will bring the all the punters along in large numbers.