JK

[graeme]

I'm currently swithering between going to the JK and heading somewhere sunny. Even thinking about the latter makes me realize that worrying about a few quid on entries is neither here nor there. Probably others have a similar dilemma, so the question is: do we think the JK will be any good.

Having run the VHI relay, I can confirm what Eddie says, the Greensheen etc. area has the potential to produce an excellent orienteering race. Sadly, the VHI relay was a total joke due to inadequacies in the map leaving people wandering for arbitrary lengths of time in the green - it felt like one of my local efforts basemapped on the OS and Google Earth... (Sorry Colin, but you know its true...)

Kyloe was truly horrible both at the VHI and the last national event. But both of these were Autumn events and the weather was unpleasant. I haven't been there in the spring since the JK/BUSA/BOC were all there over a five year period 20 years ago. Back then, it was generally nice - its an area I'd really like to plan on, because I reckon good planning can make a huge difference. Again, the VHI map felt dated and the contours vague "from a previous era" - SOC at Tentsmuir springs to mind (n.b. we're spending a lot of money getting the map sorted out for the 6-day).

So although Kyloe and Detchant has developed a bit of a bad reputation, I think that's mainly down to wrong time of year and poor mapping. There's every chance that in the Spring conditions will be excellent. But I notice the flyers don't mention the mapping: what's the story?

[Freefall]

Graeme

Some people loved the VHI courses and winning times were correct. I agree that the area is not at its best later in the year and it was possible that you could be out for a long time if stuck in the green. Some were, many were not. Good route choice and stamina helped win. I actually avoided control sites were there was doubt about the vegetation (but I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong).
The area has been remapped and is still being worked on.

Interestingly unlike many forests there are over 160 species of tree planted in Kyloe so defining vegetation boundaries is challenging for any mapper. It is not like sitka spruce v larch. There's everything in there from monkey puzzles to oak.

[Homer]

"the area has been remapped......" doesn't fill me with confidence. By whom exactly?

I agree with Graeme re the vagueries of the latest maps. The JK85 and BOC90ish maps look more professional than the latest versions. The areas have the potential for good races, but only with professionally produced maps and excellent planning. Lets' hope we won't be disappointed.

[graeme]

. I actually avoided control sites were there was doubt about the vegetation (but I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong).

I don't recall any problem with the control sites. Your comment hints at the problem - lots of places "where there was doubt about the vegetation" which had to be traversed to get from one control to the next.

Even then, various sections didn't seem to quite join up properly and the contours were a bit weird. We have plenty of maps based on the OS and amateur 1980s surveys up here that are similar: gradually tweaked down the years but never really brought up to modern standards. I know of some which have been "partly remapped" by professionals who refuse to have their name on the map, because the underlying survey is so deficient. We use big events to give us the opportunity to revise our back-catalogue based on modern photogrammetry: I was hoping the JK would be doing just that.

[Freefall]

Good points well made Graeme. Not sure if you are aware that Kyloe was a fall back position after the initial areas selected for the JK were rejected by the Controllers as not being good enough in terms of a) size and b) terrain. JK2009 was close to being called off and what has been done has had to be in compressed timescales.
There is a whole raft of controllers and technical advisors associated with JK2009 so I am sure that we will be able to put on a very good event that will satisfy most (if not all because that never happens) orienteers.

[graeme]

There is a whole raft of controllers and technical advisors associated with JK2009 so I am sure that we will be able to put on a very good event

You are the optimist!

We had a whole raft of controllers and technical advisors associated with SOC 2005 and it was still a disaster. We've got a whole raft of controllers and technical advisors associated
with Dalrulzion for the 6-day, but unless Stirling Surveys get up there for a major last-minute remap after recent/ongoing thinning, there's nothing the advisors, planners and controllers can do.

Where was it meant to be? Your BOC area at Simonside seemed quite nice apart from the time of year and accompanying seasonal weather - the last section would be fantastic for spectating. Never used since? - have you lost access there?

[frog]

I'm interested in entering, but for me an important factor in how much of the event I enter is the time the Friday event starts. I'd love to do the Newcastle sprint o but as I'd be travelling down on the Friday for childcare reasons won't be able to do so if it's a morning start. If JK organisers read this forum it would be nice if they could give a clue about approximate start times for the Friday event.

[IanD]

Interestingly unlike many forests there are over 160 species of tree planted in Kyloe so defining vegetation boundaries is challenging for any mapper. It is not like sitka spruce v larch. There's everything in there from monkey puzzles to oak.

Sounds like an interesting forest.

However, if the mapper has trouble defining the vegetation boundaries, the competitor is liable to have even more trouble interpreting the mapper's interpretation. I hope the planner will avoid 'vegetation boundary' and '(in)significant tree' control sites, and let us navigate by contours.

[Freefall]

Replies to various things on behalf of the JK organising committee:
Sprint race starts - will find out
Simonside was used for the October Odyssey for two days last year and was never considered as a venue - the areas that were going to be used included Harbottle Forest (new area by Alwinton), Kielderburn and Callaly for the Relays.
Agree that no matter how many advisers that are thrown at us it might not make a better event but hopefully it won't make it any worse!
One of the planners confirmed last night that he would not be using clearings and I am sure he will read your message about veg boundaries and insignificant trees (actually some trees are really significant)

[EddieH]

As I think this is beginning to look rather negative I want to say that I am looking forward to the event. I really enjoyed Kyloe at the VHI, and am certain that it would have been even more enjoyable in the spring. I thought it was a great mix of really interesting route choices and short fine navigation legs. The nature of the forest makes it unsuitable for distinct vegetation mapping - a fact of the environment, not poor mapping IMO.

I agree very much with Graeme's point about old maps being revised rather than remapped, but I have a 1978 Kyloe map and the contours have certainly been redone since then. I found the map perfectly usable.

The other area was full of fabulous rocky features in nice forest on a dreadful map. I take it for granted that there is no way that this has not been totally redone. As long as the map is okay it will be a very unusual enjoyable area.

One might think it hard to follow the SE, but I see no reason that Greensheen can't be just as chalenging as Leith Hill, and Kyloe should certainly prove more technically demanding than Ashdown.

[Gross]

but I have a 1978 Kyloe map

Beat you there Eddie I've got a 1973 version from the Blue Star Trophy

[Freefall]

Eddie - thank you for your kind comments on my planning at the VHI! Interestingly one of the long legs right across the area was used (in reverse) when Roger Lott planned what was probably the Blue Star Trophy event in 1973!

With regard to starts they are expected to be from 1130am to 3.30 pm on the Friday. See http://www.jk2009.org.uk/entries.php

[drobin]

1973? You were lucky, my map from the November 1971 Blue Star Trophy event was only 'partially resurveyed' from a time when only house sized boulders were mapped and cliffs were 'often dangerous'.

[graeme]

Price goes up again at the weekend. Enter now!

Map scales still seem to be a secret - I'll buy a big magnifier just in case.

[egocentric pothunter]

Please note that there has been no increase in prices for JK 2009 as against JK 2008

JK2008 Colour Coded (EOD) £6 seniors £3 Juniors
JK2009 Colour Coded (Pre-entry) £17-22 Seniors £7-10 Juniors

No increase?

We made a mistake and it was our stated policy not to increase prices. The Entries website will be amended as soon as possible and anyone who has been overcharged will get a refund.

Keep those entries coming in - there's a lot of hard work goes into an event like this so we appreciate seeing these early entrants.

Colin Matheson Day 3 Organiser and previously planner of 3 major events in Kyloe

Thanks for that...as we were not coming as I do badge and the rest of the family do colour coded!