YVETTE BAKER FINAL

[awk]

But you would still get the travel problems and some clubs would probably not bother to enter at all. We have found it very difficult to get youngsters to travel. Distance and December don't make YBT coordination easy

Which is why I go for a one off event. There are already more than enough weekends accounted for - no more please!

[Vidalos]

Agree with the need to look at this competition and like the idea of it being over one weekend with A and B finals, or even include a relay like the JIRC's.

The rules also could do with a good look at as it does seem a little unfair to have M/W 18's running against M/W 12's

[RJ]

.......a little unfair to have M/W 18's running against M/W 12's

Controversial or what! But I quite agree with you. Last year we had two runners pushed into second(?) place by much older competitors on two of the courses. Not really in the spirit of the competition!

[EddieH]

And this RJ, from a man that seems to think that Elizabeth Brown ought to compete on equal terms with Gill Manning

[Gonzo]

Oh for pity's sake, let's not start this again!!

The rules also could do with a good look at as it does seem a little unfair to have M/W 18's running against M/W 12's

This is fine as a comment. If the rules need looking at, and you feel strongly enough about it, lobby whatever 'rules' group as relevant.

Last year we had two runners pushed into second(?) place by much older competitors on two of the courses. Not really in the spirit of the competition!

Shoot the author, don't shoot the messenger!! If the rules allow an M/W18 to run against an M/W12 then the club captains are perfectly within their rights to do this. As I understand it, the YBT rules are there to be welcoming to all e.g. an M/W18 without any 'standards' can run a lower course as otherwise he/she will get trounced by one of our 'elite' 18s and will be rather disillusioned! Likewise an M/W12 or M/W14 with standards has to run a harder course than one without as otherwise there is no point in young newcomers to the sport attending and it all becomes just another 'elite' competition.

The current rules, while not suiting everybody, seem to be quite a good attempt to include everybody. So long as clubs enter legally i.e. follow the rules, then they are competing in the spirit of the competition. Otherwise you have to put something in the rules that says "these are the rules but we don't really want you to follow them word for word as doing so is not in the spirit of the competition".

[Wayward-O]

Thumbs up to a complete review of the event. I see a couple of major problems with the current structure.

1. Course compression. The event only covers courses from Yellow to Green, but many (most?) of our M/W18's and M/W20's are regularly running Blue and Brown. This can lead to a cascade of runners to lower courses in order to ensure an even spread.

2. The YBT is a C4 event, but the qualification standards are set at C3 (and higher) events. Hopefully, the new event structure, however unpopular, will help resolve this.

IMO, including courses from Yellow to Brown would alleviate the "running down" issue. Also, I like the idea of a 2-day event, especially if it could be held at a better time of year with a good event centre and a bit of a "Social" on the Saturday evening!

[HOCOLITE]

This is my personal view. Although I could have run some older people (M/W 18/20)down I don't want to insult them by asking them to travel a long distance to run an orange unless they state they want to. I' happier to ask them to run a light green as they can be competitive on that rather than at the bottom of the Green

[RJ]

Sorry Gonzo but I'm not going to go along with that line at all. There are four M/W18s running Orange on the start list.... this just isn't fair on the MUCH younger juniors that are running on that course. Some M18s can be twice the size, and have twice the stride of a W12. It is obvious it is not fair.... team managers just should not select them.

And I simply don't buy the notion that the M/W18s can't be coached to run Light Green in a relatively short period of time. All clubs attending have strong junior development within their club structure....

They should just leave the wool on the sheep!

Team managers are the ones who make the competition fair. Do the job properly. The anomaly of the M/W18's running Orange has been put forward for the last three years to my knowledge...... but it is still allowed.

[Tatty]

Oh dear, I must have misinterpreped the rules. I have 3 inexperienced M16's, but assumed they had to run Light Green. However I don't think they'sd be too happy going all that way, 4 hours+ drive each way to run an Orange course.

[D,J,J&Ms Dad]

Sorry RJ, I can't agree.

If you enter a competition, you abide by the rules, and if the rules state you can run M/W18s on easy courses then you can run M/W18s on easy courses. The club captain's job is to get a win for the club.

Having said that, I totally agree that a re-think OF THE RULES is needed and that they are not perfect as they are. But that is for FUTURE events. The current rules stand for the current competition. They state in black and white what you can and can't do and you enter your teams accordingly. A case in point was the win 2 years ago - I am not sure which club it was (possibly Dee?) but they used the rules as they were then and got an excellent win and well done to them.

[Wayward-O]

It must be a hollow victory for an M/W18 who usually runs a Light Green or longer course but hasn't competed much in higher level competitions, to beat the M/W12's on an Orange. As much as it may help the team to victory, it is demeaning the juniors who are asked to do it.

In another thread, there is some discussion regarding why we lose our older Juniors. Asking them to go out and beat younger Juniors on a course well below that which they normally run seems a very good way to start.

In all this consideration of the 'politics' of playing by the rules, let's consider the feelings of the juniors, both those demeaned by being made to run down and those younger juniors who can't see why they attended as some near-adult will win anyway.

[NeilC]

I'm not convinced that an ability-based junior competition is such a bad idea. Most/all clubs will have juniors who simply are not good enough to compete on the appropriate course for their age. At our qualifying round the organising club did not know the rules and insisted that a couple of our early runners run their "age course" rather than the one that we had advised them to run. One just couldn't cope and retired, another struggled on but took a very long time. The ethos behind the YBT is that these runners should be encouraged to be part of the club team. The difficulty of course is identifying those runners that are allowed to run down and perhaps relying on gold standard is too strict, although relatively easy to quantify. Any other criterion (eg based on colour standards) would have to rely much more on trust - or detective work by rival clubs!

[RJ]

Sorry RJ, I can't agree.......

To reiterate.... It is not fair that a mature M18, in their first year at Uni should compete against a Year 7 M12. What other sport would allow such a disparity in a 'physical' activity? It is up to the team manager to make sure the competition is fair, and if they want to win by 'playing' the rules then they will discredit the competition and the participating juniors.

We all want to win.... we wouldn't be coming to the competition if we didn't WANT to win, and if we weren't prepared to give it our best shot. Lets hope the competition is good.

[DM]

One solution to the M18s on orange courses could be to get some of your own, using the "if you can't beat them join them principle".

Everyone seems to agree that the rules need changing, next year we have an ideal opportunity to review them as the new structure is being implemented. How about having gold standards at colour coded events as the measure of ability, this will cover a greater range of events than the present system of golds gained at C3s?

ie an M18 who has done well (gold) at Greens in their local area would not be eligible for a lower course.

The only flaw I can see in this is if an M18 has been trained up and NOT run any races of any type, where do you put them? But, if they have not run any races they'll probably get slaughtered by an M12/14 who runs frequently.

Rather than bleating on about the rules not being right just before the event (too late), we need to work towards getting them put right for next time, who's up for this? And if you disappear into the woodwork after Sunday and do nothing then don't even think about bleating again next year.

Bah, Humbug etc etc

[SJC]

What other sport would allow such a disparity in a 'physical' activity?

At a competition based on ability rather than age, many that don't have any physical contact. The more the sport relies on technique rather than physical ability the more often this happens.