M/W 21 turnout.

[RJ]

Well Eddie.......

There are definitely too many winners recognised within the sport, which is what I was saying.

Examine the major event prizegivings.... Interminable lists of M45S winners(!!)... etc. As I said, I think it devalues the commodity of 'winner'. The real winners, from the elite classes are mixed in amongst all these other ones.

And then remember when many used to look disapprovingly at the 'elite' winners who dared go on the podium in a form of 'fancy dress' or at least were seen as! Wearing dark glasses etc.

Just make the prizegiving for the elite classes, 18, 20 and 21. All the other 'winners' can collect a memento from enquiries. Maybe, have a vet class and a supervet, but that's it!

[EddieH]

RJ if you mean that for major events like the British Champs then as far as I am concerned I hope you never have any influence on the matter. Short courses I agree with, but ar you suggesting that someone like Pete Gorvett who puts so much work into it, should just get lost in the list of over 40's because at his age he has no chance against them. Without the motivation of staying on top I have little doubt his standard would drop simply because he could not have the same drive.

regarding prize giving I remember many great British, JK, 6 day prize givings (and some very poor ones). Very few like that today because for a variety of reasons we rarely go indoors. I do agree that S courses are not apropriate for Championships and the vaast bulk of other events can do exactly what they choose to do.

I completely fail to see how disenfranchising over 90% of competitors from a championship experience is going to encourage 21's to join and stay in the sport, and if someone's love of the sport is so fickle as to leave because Elizabeth Brown stands on a podium then I'd suggest the first poor experience in the terrain is likely to finish them off anyway.

Yes I agree that the sport should not be hamstrung by died in the wool old codgers, but if you alienate a large mass of experienced competitors where are all the events going to come from?

[geomorph]

When I was young....
Sunday was the ideal day for Orienteering. After a Saturday in other Uni teams, down the library and two left feeting the night away, getting up and away on Sunday was the perfect tonic.

Pubs were the place to socialise post event, even when we were in a remote forest, the event flyer would list the local hostelry, and of course they would welcome the additional income this generated.

There were many more active Uni clubs, but then Orienteering was the first of the genre; nowadays the choice is so much greater, both formal and organised, and informal eg mountain biking, adventure racing.

When at Uni in both Canada & States trying to challenge the traditional Saturday College Game schedule was a non starter - these were ingrained parts of social calendar, so Sundays remained the day, and we tried to link the event (local park-based, starts from 1200) into a bbq from 1300, because the local parks had lots of lovely large open-sided cabins, good in sun and rain, and this worked well in getting a lot of kids out and about post Saturday night binge (and we got good profits from the bbq too!).

Thinking back, had there been a mountain bike club and the ad-hoc accessibility many areas allow today, it would have posed as strong competition for Orienteering in my life. But I'd still have wanted to do it on a Sunday.

[graeme]

We simply have too many winners!

RJ, I've been waiting a long time to agree with you, so it's nice to do so.

And I think what you are suggesting would in a sense produce more "winners".

Nowadays, if I want to "win" I need to come first in my little tiny class. And that depends more on who shows up than on how well I run (or if I decide to enter M45S ). Normally a couple of minutes either way makes no difference, and a bit of tin on wood spends a year gathering dust unappreciated in a cupboard before the annual trip to the engravers.

But when I started there were many more intermediate targets to "win" - I could beat all my clubmates, I could beat my highest ever position, I could break into the top 50. Nobody gave me a medal, but it felt like a "win" because it could ONLY be done with a good run. And pretty much anyone could set themselves targets which feel like "winning".

I completely fail to see how [this] is going to encourage 21's to join and stay in the sport,

Simply by allowing intermediate targets ("wins") which can be achieved by 21s at high profile events. I'm impressed by anyone who wins their age class at BOC or JK: real winners who ran well. But I'm not impressed by "winners" of the interminable age classes at regional events.

Moreover, the "first-place" winners in your system really would seem like wins worth having. Truly a win-win situation

Graeme

PS Saturdays are for racing, Sundays for fun IMO

[roadrunner]

Just make the prizegiving for the elite classes, 18, 20 and 21.

I've got some sympathy with reducing the number of age classes (perhaps not quite as much as you suggested), but why keep those three? M/W20 usually has a very small number of competitors, so I can't see that it warrants a separate category as much as, say, M/W40.

[HOCOLITE]

I hope that you have chosen to ignore junior classes as they should have awards winners etc. If not I can guarantee that there will be no sport at all in the future as these victories are very important, even at regional competitions as they encourage youngsters, and don't always go to the same people. The JK and British M/W 10B are probably some of the most important trophies and certainly there was not a trophy for M10B at these a few years back but there was for W10. Sexist or what

[graeme]

Well RJ might have ignored junior classes because (he said) he thinks they have little to do with creating M/W21s (and I somewhat agree). We've promoted junior orienteering well and hard for many years as our main recruitment effort and the effect of this strategy on M/W21 is now evident.

So we have to make a case that junior orienteering is a good thing for and of itself, which I think it is. And in this context I agree that prizes are important. For M10B at the BOC, the winner was called forward this year, only to have no place on the podium and no award. Winner was briefly in tears, but credit someone with quick thinking to find a spare buff and instant happiness.

And yes, he did have to beat more people than the winner of M21L and run faster minutes per km than his dad...
_______________________________________________________________________

M10B (14) 1.8 km 30 m 11 C
1 6222 James Ackland INT 12:13

[RJ]

Just make the prizegiving for the elite classes, 18, 20 and 21.

I've got some sympathy with reducing the number of age classes (perhaps not quite as much as you suggested), but why keep those three? M/W20 usually has a very small number of competitors, so I can't see that it warrants a separate category as much as, say, M/W40.

Because the M18 to M20 to M21 route might just retain those juniors. If they really are at the top of the tree at 21 and are real 'winners' then perhaps the younger ones will aspire to get there. There are many WOC runners who stay at the top for years, and could almost be considered 'old' when still coming close to the podium.

[awk]

I have a lot of sympathy too with RJ's point - maybe not in relation to recruiting M/W21s, but certainly in relation to wider recruiting and retention. Myriads of small classes don't make for interesting or exciting competition, and half the fun at events is comparing with those you've raced against: the broader classes at some of the newer formats went a long way towards restoring my enthusiasm at a time when I was starting to drift away from the sport.

Getting the balance right is important though. 5-year bands are probably appropriate at championships and big events like the 6-day (so agree with you there EddieH). But at smaller events, they're too narrow, even if chopping the L and S variants. I'd go for 10 year bands at intermediate events, and sticking largely with the Vet (40+), Supervet (55+), and possibly Megavet (70 or 65+) structure at others? The aim will be to generate the most interesting competition from simple boredom.

As someone who is at the older end of their class at urban races (M50 in the Vets), I love competing/comparing against those others even 10 years of so younger. I still compete against my own peers (not necessarily age-peers!), but having Martin Ward and others of his ilk stuff me out of sight gives me some perspective (and something to dream about?!). For me, they've added a huge slice of motivation that had largely gone out the window at a series of insipid (mostly regional) events, where there really was hardly any competition to be measuring myself against.

[BandD]

A lot seems to have been said about prizes and also about the younger M/W 21s.
What can we do to attract people who don't win prizes ?- most of us.
And what can we do about attracting and keeping the 24-34 age group - many of them with partners and families.
I notice that the Adventure Race I've just looked at on the web has teams racing - some of them mixed, as well as pairs.
(They also paid £42 per head to the private company organising the event for entry - you could afford a well staffed creche with that sort of money, and a marquee for the on site bar or cafe.)
But that aside -
Since we are in a period of innovation should orienteering bring in pairs (as in the mountain marathons) - I know a lot of beginners and more experienced competitors who are not at all confident about going into some of the wilder forests alone.
Others just like to be sociable - having a chat as they run.
It would also give a chance for partners to go out together?
And why not family or club teams?
Then we could take a look at disqualification - one strike and you're out- not very encouraging for the hardened runner let alone the beginner.
I know that some school events run on the basis of a mistake earning a time penalty or putting the runner in the second or third level of the results.

[HOCOLITE]

One possible reason that we don't retain juniors to the 21's is that they get effectively pushed aside by the elite set up. If they are rejected by the 'squad system' or never match up to the standards they are treated as second class citizens so unless they really have a passion for an element of our sport they go elsewhere and find something else.
We forget that there are other aspects of O which are required in the sport. Perhaps there should be 'awards' for best new young mapper. some recognition for those who follow the coaching route and those who become planners, organisers and controllers. We will need these too in the future.
Some of those who fail to match up to BO's squads could perhaps be encouraged into these areas, encouragement could be financial as these youngsters generally don't have great financial resources. Someone suggested Uni campuses as a good shop window for urban O but they need to be mapped, the event needs to be planned and organised. The old codgers wont be doing this as they are too busy getting their fix in the distant forests

[frog]

I hated being a W21. The courses were always too long for me because I didn't have the time or inclination to do alot of training. I find I'm gradually aging into a course length that at long standard I can cope with. This may be a reason why older orienteers keep going, they can cope with the course lengths without being a serious hill runner, where as less dedicated young adults decide it's too much like hard work and drop out.

[distracted]

Something else I've noticed about our sport - which might well be linked to a lack of young adults trying it out - is the lack of an attractive brand. Look at what else is out there - Rat Race, ParkRun, Hellrunner, Tough Guy etc. All are short, catchy titles that have been turned into brands. You can get a very rough idea of what the event is about just from the name, and once you've had that first experience, the brand means that you know what to expect if you turn up to an event.

I feel that there is an obvious brand for urban orienteering - City Race. It fits with the other examples mentioned above, gives a good idea of what the event is about, and tbh sounds better than "Nopesport Urban League" or "UK Cities Cup" - however successful these ideas have been. Add in a bit of marketing - London attracted a couple of sponsors and around 50 non-orienteers in the Open classes!

But this shouldn't be the only brand we can come up with - there's got to be scope for a brand covering more traditional races. And controversial as it may be - maybe a group of branded events should be marketed specifically at and run for this target age-group? The established orienteers can get their fix elsewhere... Use a simple format, remove all the unnecessary jargon, make things look professional and attractive to this age-group! You don't have to have the events every week - as shown by sports that have been successful in this age-group like triathlon and adventure racing. A focus on quality puts forward a certain image - this should attract competitors, and their mates, along to the next event.

[Gross]

not sure what I meant to say here:)

[Mrs H]

Some really good stuff coming out here. I like Seabird's contribution - it's not for him but if it gets the youngster (to stay) in then he says lets do it. that's refreshing because I've been getting a very different message since my CompassSport article along these lines which basically says "I'm all right Jack! Leave the sport alone - there's enough of us in the upper age classes to keep it going for another 20 years and then who cares?" Which is a bit depressing.

I sympathise with Frog - i know a number of experienced M20s who'd rather run 6k and enjoy it than slog round 11k because it's the macho thing to do - especially when the 11k seems to have been planned to make up the length out of boring bits. this hard core attitude will drive away the youngsters who as Hocolite says - very well may be the facilitators of the future because they love the sport and don't feel they have to spend their time in it "proving themselves" which let's face it is a pretty insecure thing to have to do.

I