M/W 21 turnout.

[BandD]

Looking through last weekend's competitons I see-
14 events over Saturday and Sunday (9) - Good.
A big turnout ( too many for me to count) at Brocton but only 15 M21 and 9 W21.
Big turnout at Broadstone with 21 M21s and 15 W21
There were 267 at the Claro but only 9 M21 and 9 W21.
Grampian 3 M21 2 W21
Fife 8 M21, 2 W21.
Nato 7 M21 4 W21
S Wales - 2 M21 1 W21
W Anglia 8 M21 (5 beginners) 3 W21
Ecko - ages not available.
Probably well over 1000 running but 73 M21 and 45 W21.
M and W 21 turnout is not very encouraging. These should be the core of the sport the more so because they cover a 14 year span compared with the other 5 year slots.
Any answers?

[Mrs H]

I think there was probably a high density of M/W21s at the Spook/Shuoc relays on saturday.. this echoes a thread on the HOC forum after the previous weekend when a member was bemoaning the lack of M/W21s out the weekend of the Sheffield City race(but not including that race in their sample)
I said there

Well I would think the answer to your question was pretty obvious - you drive dozens of expensive miles to an ordinary orienteering event in an ordinary forest and for a start off it's full of old people, there's nowhere to have a coffee and a cake and comfortably chat with like-minded young people and meet people to go out with because even if they were there they'd be sitting in their car and going straight home.

Now if you took your flash new mountain bike to Birches Valley or somewhere like that you could go for a thrash in the woods, spend endless hours admiring other people's kit and enjoying refreshments at the cafe before forming a convoy to call at the next pub for lunch on your way home. If you were a singleton - which would you opt for?

M/W21s are a self-fulfilling prophesy - those that arn't doing the countless other activities avilable to them now will turn up where they expect the others to turn up - and on saturday that was sheffield.

I would just like to correct any misconception that I prefer a street to a forest - I certainly do not. but i'm getting fed up of driving miles to turn up at brambly mud patches where there is no society to be hand.

As I said in my article I suspect the future will be loads more small scale and sustainable local events and then saving the big stuff for high days and holidays - when everyone will turn up anyway.

Saves me writing it all again

[SeanC]

Supporting Mrs. H's argument - many of the newcomers at Kent Night League events have been M/W21's, or M/W35's. It starts with a big long chat before the mass start, and finishes with a pub meal. The 60 minutes of brambles and mud in the middle doesn't seem to put them off

[BandD]

[quote="Mrs H"]I think there was probably a high density of M/W21s at the Spook/Shuoc relays on saturday.. this echoes a thread on the HOC forum after the previous weekend when a member was bemoaning the lack of M/W21s out the weekend of the Sheffield City race(but not including that race in their sample)

But the results from Sheffield don't bare this out.
Mainly SPOOk and Sheffield Uni and many running twice or more to make up the various relay teams.
That can't explain the low runout from S England to Wales and Scotland.

The "Social" aspect suggestion is interesting.
Does that mean more on the continental plan of BQ's and beer tents or colder weaather alternatives like organiser designated local cafes or hotels for meeting up in?

[Mrs H]

and many running twice or more to make up the various relay teams.

I think you'll find that's the idea - two per team - multiple legs

That can't explain the low runout from S England to Wales and Scotland.

I wasn't attempting to - just pointing out there are other things going on.

One thing I've become acutely aware of in the last year is the difficulty university students have in actually getting to events - if they haven't got access to a car and a minibus is not laid on they are stuffed - at that point I suspect it is easy to lose the orienteering habit that you acquired with your family and take up something more accessible.

[Blanka]

One thing I've become acutely aware of in the last year is the difficulty university students have in actually getting to events - if they haven't got access to a car and a minibus is not laid on they are stuffed

I would disagree there. When I wanted to go orienteering both as an undergrad and as a postgrad, I've always managed to get hold of contacts for local club members and get lifts to events. And as CUOC's fixtures secretary, I always managed to sort out lifts for the CUOC members, even after we got limited to two minibus bookings a term by the Union. OK, WAOC made it easier for me as it was (still is!) my home club, but after I left Rosemary Dyer, Elspeth Ingleby, Nicola Robertson, Clare Sutherland and others were doing exactly the same without any previous links to the club. You just build up a list of helpful local club members and it's usually not a problem...

At Uni, it's more the abundance of lots of alternative activities and some people prefer to give orienteering a break for a while and perhaps get back to it later.

[Mrs H]

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you - my point being it requires some motivation which other more sociable and accessible activities may not - now if you knew that a mini-bus full or banter would be leaving the union at 9 am each sunday morning to go to an event stopping at the pub on the way home it might be a bit more tempting.

[madmike]

It doesn;t seem to long ago that I just failed to make the top 100 on M21L at BOC and there were 2 x M21L courses at JK that year to allow 2 people to start at the same time as there wern't enough start imes otherwise.

This year as a fat, injured, unfit M40 I could have been 14th at worst and proppbably in the top 10 running up on M21L at BOC - nearer the front than I finsihed on M40S! What's gone wrong? Where are the 21s?

[Spookster]

What's gone wrong? Where are the 21s?

Well, they're not all going to the HOC C3 at Postensplain on Sunday. Currently there are 4 M21s, and 3 W21s out of 300 competitors on the start list.

[RJ]

What's gone wrong? Where are the 21s?

We could start by trying to trace some of the hundreds of juniors who have gone off to Uni over the last decade! They must have a story to tell..... surely they will have a reason for not continuing with the sport.

Quite a few that I know have all gone and got great jobs and are busy making a career and a family. They were all good orienteers and perhaps they can't find the time and commitment to continue at that level. Some are even turning up occasionally at events to just have a run out.

[Pete_Bog]

Well, they're not all going to the HOC C3 at Postensplain on Sunday. Currently there are 4 M21s, and 3 W21s out of 300 competitors on the start list.

Ben and Peter, half of the M21's, are actually M18's going for a long run!

[Angry Haggis]

It's the Christmas party season - I reckon a lot of non-elite M/W21s are at Christmas parties on the Saturday nights and then don't make it out the following day - explains my no-show last weekend anyway .

[graeme]

What's gone wrong? Where are the 21s?

For years we've totally neglected recruitment among young adults. The model of recruiting at low-key, unexciting local events simply doesn't work. Once you reach "Regional" level you're bunged into up to 10kms TD5 worth of 21"short" or some derisory non-comp course full of kids. My first BOC was exciting enough that I still remember it: I was second on M21C (TD3): - and that was because BOTH the M21B (TD4) courses were full. These options no longer exist.

Juniors drop out, people have careers, families: but that's no different to 20 years ago.
No other sport tries to survive on retention rather than recruitment. We've done very well in adult retention of those recruited 20 years ago, but now the big hole is opening up.

[RJ]

........Juniors drop out.......

Not quite Graeme.... they ALL drop out!! Very few, a handfull, stay with the sport.

I don't believe it is because the sport is uninteresting.... particularly with SI, laser maps, a huge variety of formats and areas.

We simply have too many winners! Five year age classes, L and S. By having so many winners you devalue the 'commodity'. Just have OPEN and Veteran classes, and have the title of 'winner' meaning something. It might just attract people who fancy being the best.

[IanD]

We simply have too many winners! Five year age classes, L and S. By having so many winners you devalue the 'commodity'. Just have OPEN and Veteran classes, and have the title of 'winner' meaning something. It might just attract people who fancy being the best.

But M/W21's would be running the Open class.

There are arguments for and against the age bands, but they have no relevance to M/W21's - you need to look elsewhere to find reasons for their absence.

Actually, I thought one of the good things about the new event structure is that it would permit M/W21's to be competitive, and gain ranking points, on any technical course. Instead of being made to choose between very long (L), still pretty long (S), and very short and nobody else will run it (N).

The single ranking list with points obtainable on any course seems to have been thrown out, mores the pity, but the rest still applies.