changes to the 2009 fixture list

[DM]

As for the Twin Peaks however - this year there were around 400 age-class runners each day, with only 12 competitors on M21L and 4 on W21L - and this is meant to be a large event? Not from where I'm standing - it might well once have been... but changes like this are the whole point behind changing an increasingly dated structure.

Distracted, suggest you look at the run of events leading up to Twin Peak 2008. EBOR national 1 week before, BOC at Culbin three weeks before and JK not that further in the past. Maybe people were tired of sitting on motorways? The organisers knew very well that numbers were going to be down as a result of this. Then look to 2007 figures which were 680 on day 1 and 810 on day 2.

Lumping events like Twin Peak together with those "run from the back of a car" by putting them in L3 is not going to help those anyone understand what they are going to get, whether they are exisitng or new orienteers.

A suggestion I have made to BOF (directly not via Nopesport before anyone starts getting agitated) is that they test the new structure concept on complete outsiders by explaining it to them and then ask them to explain it back, to check if the desired message is getting across.(It's called test marketing...and is used to make tweaks to a product to get it right). Not sure if this was taken up, it's probably too late now.

[graeme]

A suggestion I have made to BOF ... Not sure if this was taken up, it's probably too late now.

Of course, that's what the review group should have done in the first place. And, surprise surprise, that's exactly what we did. I'm also at "that age" where I see many kids (mine included) starting at M/W10, and getting their thoughts too.

Turns out colours are quite easily understood as a progression. Start at white, work through to Black. To novices its obvious that courses will get longer and harder (understanding that brown is no harder than green isn't so easy). Two dimensional designations (distance and TD) are confusing. All this "light" and "short" stuff is also confusing (mea culpa).

"Beginners" and "elite" events are well understood. Local/Regional/District nobody has a clue - most people can't remember whether a district is bigger than a region.

Distance in km is confusing, leading runners to try overlong courses (they tend to assume that their per km pace will be a little slower than in a running race). (My unfavourite logic: "For a good runner, 10km = 6miles, about 4 minutes a mile so it'll take 25mins (!)")

Control descriptions are confusing, whether pictorial or written ("what is a reentrant?"). Novices often don't bother, which works out fine.

Ranking lists are easily understood - as is the idea that the point calculations are too complicated to understand. Results and splits are easily understood and popular.

All the paperwork and preprocessing is confusing (control card, control descriptions, map corrections, master maps, ticket to get the map at the start).

But, as has been said many times, the most important thing is whether there's a nice course, in an interesting place, with a clear, accurate map.

[DM]

OK Graeme, you (meaning the review group) did the external check bit.

If my understanding of all the changes is correct, the suggestions of the review group are not being followed as they were presented.

So maybe my point should have been, has the structure as it is NOW being described been checked for clarity with complete beginners?

[graeme]

We didn't do quite what you suggested, we asked in general what things are understood and what aren't before coming with proposals. Some of the things that have been reintroduced are exactly those which confuse people.

Really, novices have only one question "Should I go to this event?": conflating good quality normal events (C4s) with informal one-offs, complicated pin-punch/master-map events and novelty formats means that level gives no information to help answer that question. It might help experienced orienteers to distinguish the good from the very good, but once you're experienced you can usually do that anyway.

[NeilC]

Really, novices have only one question "Should I go to this event?": conflating good quality normal events (C4s) with informal one-offs, complicated pin-punch/master-map events and novelty formats means that level gives no information to help answer that question. It might help experienced orienteers to distinguish the good from the very good, but once you're experienced you can usually do that anyway.

On the flip side I know that a lot of novices are scared of moving up to regional events feeling that they will be out of their depth, so they stick to the comfort zone of the locals. Often for several years. A good club will of course communicate with its new members and help advise them on which events are likely to be suitable irregardless of whatever label happens to be attached to that particular event.

[SeanC]

Is our sport a bit unusual in that top tier events cater for beginners? It's probably a reflection of our size. Few clubs can boast SOG style weekly local events, so district and regional events need to work for beginners and experienced.

The answer to the question "should I " [a beginner] " go to this event" could be answered by a good event search website. A filter could be "show me all events with courses for beginners". Not many events will disappear, perhaps that will reassure?

Part of the answer to why newcomers prefer local events might be their size, it's easier to get to get to know your new club members at a 50 person local event than a 500 person regional I suspect.

[Adventure Racer]

Are The Area Championships to be Open, which since 1985 they have not been, i.e., can anyone win the trophies regardless of their regional allegiance?

I believe that, in the absence of Night National Events, The Night Championships have remained Open.

If I've understood what you mean correctly, then the Southern Nights certainly wasn't an open event 2 years ago - don't know if it's changed since.

[distracted]

I believe that, in the absence of Night National Events, The Night Championships have remained Open.

If I've understood what you mean correctly, then the Southern Nights certainly wasn't an open event 2 years ago - don't know if it's changed since.

And the Midland Nights at Rowney Warren this weekend isn't either, according to their website...

[Gnitworp]

I'm looking at the Southern Nights M 60 trophy now and see it was won by Frank Smith of Octavian Droobers in 1992, at least he took it away and had it engraved!

[Meat Market]

And the Midland Nights at Rowney Warren this weekend isn't either, according to their website...

If anyone's going to this or especially the Rowney Warren event the next day from the London/ Cambridge area can they send me a PM? I can get to any train/tube station in London and may arrange to stay overnight in Cambridge at a friends. I will of course pay my share of petrol etc
Cheers,
Duncan Grassie
GRAMP

[Mrs H]

I'm sure I've been named as Midlands Night W50L Champion on a couple of occasions when I certainly didn't win the course (probably the only elligible person on it)

[redkite]

For some reason Midlands nights includes Wales as well. It was held in Pembrey a couple of years ago.

[awk]

On what basis can you disagree with this?

On the basis that the ESRG documentation is pretty explicit about the fact that level 2 should contain most C4s. I had believed (obviously wrongly) that this was what committees would be receiving, as that was what was agreed to by Council. So what documentation did Rules receive?

Somebody or some group made the decision that C4s and C5s should be lumped together as Level 3. I do not know who made that decision but that was the structure that was presented to the March meeting of Rules Group and it is on that structure that the guidelines have been based.

Interesting, because if I understand correctly, that was a decision that nobody was entitled to make: it was not what Council agreed to.

[IanD]

It is a nice idea ~ many folk will get Tomtom for Christmas. We are therefore seeking to support a growing need.

But for a post code driven facility to work there needs to be a house very very near the car parking area. In rural locations we will cause chaos if we provide such information on our fixture registrations. In Scotland the nearest house could be 10 miles away !

For Tom Tom, and I believe other SatNav's, it would be more useful to provide latitude and longitude. SatNav users could then be guided to the entrance to the parking field, rather than a nearby row of houses - and as Clive says, in some parts of the world, "nearby" may not be very close.

I think this is more one for the writers of Final Details than those filling in BOF registration forms though; often the event will be registered before the car park has been sorted.

As SeanC points out, some web sites use postcode in searches to find events near to a given reference points; an approximate postcode would be fine for this. For years, we've been sending in BOF registrations with OS grid references which haven't necessarily been close to the car park; postcode doesn't feel any different.

[IanD]

Really, novices have only one question "Should I go to this event?": conflating good quality normal events (C4s) with informal one-offs, complicated pin-punch/master-map events and novelty formats means that level gives no information to help answer that question. It might help experienced orienteers to distinguish the good from the very good, but once you're experienced you can usually do that anyway.

Never mind novices, I'm finding the lumping together of everything from one-course training events to full colour-coded's into the same category is making it unnecessarily hard for me to pick out the events I want.

Looks to me like we're heading for a world where branding becomes all-important. Events with limited courses and few facilities but a good name like the "Kent Orienteering League" will do well, one-off colour-coded events with a full range of courses will appear less attractive.