changes to the 2009 fixture list

[Mrs H]

Confused? You will be!

http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/d ... hanges.pdf

I just don't understand why it doesn't start off as it means to go on

[SeanC]

On the fixture list, it's a little better for beginners since there is one less confusing term (district). For advertising to existing orienteers, the new changes are interesting:

If the old district event isn't part of a league, it can look more local than it should be.

For example look at these two events:

17th SE SAX Kent Orienteering League. Kings Wood Challock. TR022500.
C5 £4.00/Free. EPS-SI. Parking £1.00. http://www.saxons-oc.org

15th SE SAX Local Event. Bedgebury, Hawkhurst. TQ720340.
C5 £6.50/Free. EPS-SI. No dogs. http://www.saxons-oc.org

The second one is the district event with 6 or 7 courses, the first one is a local event with 3 courses, but the first event sounds more impressive (because it's part of a league). Apart from the price there is no indication of greater quality on the second event.

Perhaps clubs should consider listing the courses as this HAVOC event has done (but I guess the colours might be wrong?)

14th EA HAVOC Local Event. Harts Wood, Brentwood. TQ607912.
C5 £4.00/£2.00. EPS-SI. W, Y, O, LG & Blue, String course. Parking £2.00. Starts 10.30-12.30AM.

Of course this might all look very different the new fixtures website when it goes live.

[King Penguin]

So a current Level 4 first becomes a Level 5 for about 5 weeks and then becomes a Level 3 ?
And both structures are going to run in parallel for a while.
I thought it was supposed to become simpler. Mrs H is right, it is very confusing. What chance does a newcomer have of understnding it ?

[RichT]

The new Fixtures List does look different from the existing, but you'll have to wait until the new year to find out once the development has been completed.

The changes to the existing system were the simplist solution to the existing database in the short-term to reflect the new 3-tier structure.

It'll certainly start to get people thinking about the new formats .

[Snail]

Clubs might want to register (what used to be) full colour coded C4 events at the new Level 2, as this would be the easiest method of achieving the distinction needed from what really are local events (such as the example SeanC quotes).

Most of the old C4 events are effectively aimed at a "regional" audience - as associations rarely organise more than one on the same day - which corresponds to the new "Level 2".

It also achieves what I understand (from earlier discussions on here) the Competitions Review Group really wanted to happen - rather than what is implied by the last sentence of the "Changes.. " document.

[SeanC]

If a club has a good reputation for their regional events, this might be devalued by labelling a district event as regional without a corresponding increase in quality, which might mean lots of remapping, extra courses, more work. A tricky one.

I'm not a SAXON, so I can plug their regional on the 4th Jan, which is significant for using the JK relay area, and for being the first regional event of the new event structure. Good luck SAXONS....

[seabird]

Clubs might want to register (what used to be) full colour coded C4 events at the new Level 2, as this would be the easiest method of achieving the distinction needed from what really are local events (such as the example SeanC quotes).

Indeed most existing C4s meet the quality determinate for a Level 2 event suggested in the Q&A Facsheets.

The one problem being that they require a Level 2 Controller.

Not sure how much this is a real problem as I know of 2 recent C3 Regional Events that have been completely acceptable from a competitor viewpoint, without meeting this stipulation. Until will can fill all the "Full" Level 2 events with Level 2 controllers it seems a fruitless task to try and fill the good quality smaller events with Controllers at that level. Locally we have a bountiful supply of Level 3 Controllers, whose talents will be mightily wasted just checking that risk assessments are done on low key events.

As a Club Fixtures Secretary I have been struggling with how to distinguish in simple terms between an 8-9 course colour coded event and a 3-4 course informal training event, if they both come under the L3 grouping. The only real way seems to be to list all the courses on offer on the registration form. Rather cumbersome, and a problem which would be overcome easily by making all existing C4s into L2 events.

As L2s the significant difference between a full course event, or quality urban/sprint/whatever type of event, and an 8-9 course event would be clearly signified on a registration form by the pre-entry provision for the former. The rare exceptions to this rule of thumb could explain their nature in more detail.

[EddieH]

To me the difference between a current C4 and an average regional is just the name. The difference between a C4 and a local training event is chalk and cheese.

I completely fail to see how on earth it is supposed to be simpler for beginners, or indeed anyone, to know what to expect by lumping he latter together

[Scott]

...whereas lumping the former together would be preferrable, but no doubt someone would have created an unholy racket if it had been imposed on every C4. We have to hope that clubs now take the initiative and upgrade their C4s to L2s, but everything depends on Rules Group coming up with a sensible (ie. suitable to the new structure) redefinition of the controller levels (as promised in the last set of FAQs).

[distracted]

I would imagine there are going to be changes in the fixtures registration system which will enable us to easily find out what is on offer at each event. There are a few of the early 2009 event flyers for old 'badge' events advertising each and every course they will have on offer on the club websites, this should become the norm.

However, I agree that this information should also easily available without having to go to each and every club website - i.e. on the national fixtures list. Courses on offer at an event could be denoted by a column with a grid containing blocks of the relevant colours for your "standard cross-country event" (Potentially problems with courses like 'blue' and 'short blue' etc, but the latter could be a blue box with an 'S' in it; sprint/middle/urban events are separate to this). This would provide an immediate visual idea of the size of event, given the relative numbers of boxes, and the courses on offer should be pretty clear too. 12 boxes and hence every colour for your big level 2 event (November Classic, say), 7 or 8 colours at the old 'colour-coded' (at whichever level), 3 boxes of yellow, orange and green for a small local level 3 event.

I'd hope that would be simple to understand and allow people to distinguish between events a little more easily?

[SeanC]

Yes, this makes sense. And don't forget string courses

It may be a bit late to be submitting extra requirements for the new event website, let's hope something along those lines is included.

[NeilC]

We have to hope that clubs now take the initiative and upgrade their C4s to L2s

But why would they want to? Register it at level 3 and you don't need to find a grade 2 controller, you don't need to have an embargo, no toilets required, you can use a 3 year old map etc etc

If the club believes that it has a good product then it ought to be able to sell it whatever the level. Unlike in EddieH-land, around here the local (C5) club league events pull in a similar or greater number of competitors as many of the C4s without any major reduction in quality. Less courses perhaps, but since when has the number of courses been an indicator of quality?

[SeanC]

This is about brands isn't it? Your local series Neil (the SOG series) has a strong brand. It's a consistent, high quality product, so all the SOG event needs is to have the label SOG and the target market know what they're going to get (and are very happy with it). The same is probably true of district events that form part of leagues. The loosing events are those district events that aren't part of leagues and have had their brand changed to one that is poorly defined (local event) and is of lower status. Clubs and regions could give them a new brand by creating new leagues, so long as it's not called the "used to be called district events league"

[RJ]

This is about brands isn't it? ....... Clubs and regions could give them a new brand by creating new leagues......

Spot on. Leagues and Galoppens that have scores/points awarded on results is the way to go. Annual prizes/trophies.

MOST events should be considered as Local/District, as MOST of the punters will only travel a short distance to the event. Folk will travel to an event if they 'hear' about it by reputation, particularly if it is part of a series.

[Snail]

But why would they want to?

Perhaps in order to get people to turn up?

The point that Rules group seem to have failed to take on board in rehashing the Review Group proposals is that a (new) level 3 event, like an old C5, can be anything - perhaps just a club training event with no controls and re-using maps with old pre-printed courses on.

So unless I have some other information, I'm no longer going to travel to a level 3 event purely because it appears in the fixtures list, whereas I could have done that for an old C2/C3/C4 with some degree of confidence that it would be a "quality" event.

The "other information" needed can of course vary: prior knowledge of a "series" organised by the same club / an external controller / something on the range of courses offered / etc. All of which can be sensibly interpreted by experienced orienteers. But quite difficult for beginners.