Embargos

[Snail]

Drinks at finish - ..... If the finish is a long way from the assembly then risk mitigation would suggest that drinks need to be available near the finish.

Risk assessment may also require that if the Start is a long way from assembly then drinks should be available at - or on the way to - the Start. Particularly in summer. Drinking prior to the race is more important in avoiding dehydration.

This is an area where the UK seems to be out of line with other countries, who in many cases seem to place far more importance on drinks at the start than the finish.

[EddieH]

Reverting to another topic that I also started - Risk assessments - toilets and drinks What is the world coming to?

I suppose without toilets some poor competitor might burst their bladder
And everyone can stagger to the finish, but they might just not have enough liquid to get the last bit to the assembly.

These are serious risks indeed.

[geomorph]

Reverting to another topic that I also started - Risk assessments - toilets and drinks What is the world coming to?

'coming to' - its already there.
I raised this because it shows exactly the horribly niggly stuff that has to be taken into consideration because a very small percentage of people are either abusers or of limited ability/competency, and the former ruin it for those who are capable and decent, whilst the latter deserve appropriate levels of consideration.

I suppose without toilets some poor competitor might burst their bladder

Unfortunately its the 'easily offended public' risk in addition to the privacy issues Graeme raised. So it is also a PR job.

And everyone can stagger to the finish, but they might just not have enough liquid to get the last bit to the assembly.

Precisely. It is an 'at the time' judgement call - a risk assessment; we'll do it cos it is 20 minutes back to assembly across a barren hillside and the temperature is 30C.(drinks) or -10C wind chill (clothing dump).

[seabird]

Make it clear that competitors responsibility for their own safety includes hydration.

Can't help feeling that this is becoming more and more like work. Increased form filling/risk assessments to cover the accountability questions; less real work done.

We are in real danger of bureaucratising and risk assessing ourselves into fewer events. This all has to be a deterrent to many a volunteer, who would like to put on a small informal event with the minimum of fuss and input.

Tonight our club have a major ring round to try and recruit volunteers to run our programme of low key (and larger) events. All part of the agenda for more local events. I hope tomorrow I can report success and that all this has not proved a major obstacle, but I am not optimistic.

[SeanC]

Graeme wrote " it was the MAIN recommendation of BOF's "Women in orienteering" review. "

I've not heard of this review. I assume this review has some good advice about how to increase participation (of women). Do you have a link?

[Adventure Racer]

Quality of area (can you have a level 2 event in which the black course goes round a small area three times or spends 50% of the course in brambles)?

No particular reason why you couldn't have the former if well planned on a decent but small area - far preferable to the latter! Though personally I'd far rather run a properly planned "middle" course (ie not a traditional Green/Blue, but something planned as a middle) on such an area as part of a level 2 event if as part of this new event structure we can get over the "longer is better" idea (as indeed I did at one of my most enjoyable events this year - thanks Pingu).

And everyone can stagger to the finish, but they might just not have enough liquid to get the last bit to the assembly.

I've certainly "just" made it to the finish on hot days before now and been very grateful of availability of liquid. Doesn't mean you have to provide it, but you should consider the possibility in a risk assessment if you are really doing more than a box ticking exercise - risk assessments really aren't as evil as you seem to think if the system works properly.

[graeme]

So what quality of presentation do people think ought to be applied to level 2 events?

Bearing in mind that the guideline should be the minimum rather than the norm, I would say...

Overprinted maps YES
Electronic punching and on-the-day results YES
Embargo NO
A current level 1-3 controller)? YES
Online pre-entry? NO
Decent assembly area? YES
timely Post-results analysis? NO
Quality of area YES *
A minimum number of courses offered ? NO
Provision of drinks at the finish NO

* Where the area is appropriate to the type of event. Not 12k of brambly bad planning,
but plenty of people would enjoy a Hagaby-style race at TD3.

[roadrunner]

I think that, in terms of what's provided at an event, we should think not only of what experienced orienteers like ourselves consider essential, but what might attract (or, by its absence, put off) newcomers. For example, almost any road race (and probably most XCs) will have drinks at the finish, so runners will probably expect this, even though they could (and some do) carry their own supply. Another thing which you see at almost any road race, but hardly ever at orienteering, is a "secure" baggage store - i.e. you have to show your race number to get your bag back (if there aren't race numbers, you could use SI/Emit number instead). I think this is becoming more significant than it was with the increase in urban events - it's one thing to leave your money, car keys, etc unattended in the middle of nowhere, but quite another to leave it in a town centre. (Note: "Secure" in inverted commas because it doesn't mean the organiser's liable if something goes missing.)

[distracted]

...that levels should reflect on the quality of presentation of the event

But does quality of presentation necessarily mean a quality event? In the last month I've been to, or heard about, events that might well meet Graeme's list of "expecteds" but have been let down by poor standard of map, and/or poor planning (even with a well-qualified controller!) on an area which should lend itself to a quality event.

Going off-topic even further - looking at planning/controlling standards - the advent of routegadget has been quite revealing as to 'interpretations' of technical difficulty of courses, especially of those below 'maximum difficulty'...

[Roger]

...almost any road race (and probably most XCs) will have drinks at the finish...

Discounting cups of tea or cans of Fanta on sale from catering vans, in 130+ XC races (county and district leagues; county, area and national champs) over the last 20+ years, I can't remember ever having drinks provided at the finish.

CrossCountryRunner

[roadrunner]

...almost any road race (and probably most XCs) will have drinks at the finish...

Discounting cups of tea or cans of Fanta on sale from catering vans, in 130+ XC races (county and district leagues; county, area and national champs) over the last 20+ years, I can't remember ever having drinks provided at the finish.

CrossCountryRunner

I bow to your greater experience ... but the few Sunday events I did had drinks (and food!) provided for free by the host club's members. The other XC-type events I've done (Bracknell Forest 5 and Leith Hill Race), I think, had water at the finish too.

[mxhornet]

As a runner of many years experience 30+

I've run getting on for a thousand races and agree that drinks on offer at the end of a cross country race are a rarity, though many years back at the end of East Anglian CC league races you'd not only have drinks but hot food on offer too.

Also I'd say that "secure" baggage tends to on offer at bigger road races rather than being the norm.

I'm very new to orienteering and while I can see why some may feel embargos should exist and experience orienteers will have grown up with them and except them as the norm. I'm very much struck by how differently major events are approached compared to fell running which shares many facets with orienteering. On the Fell Running Association forum it is common for people to organise recces of courses in advance of the big day. The only usually no no is if the course enters private land only available on race day.

Another observation regarding the 12 month ruling, if someone has lived in the area in question and has many years experience of the terrain surely this won't disappear completely in a year.

[Gross]

On the Fell Running Association forum it is common for people to organise recces of courses in advance of the big day

OK.... fell running World Champs... pure running, no brain work... check the course in advance... WOC... check the course in advance... turn the sport into a joke:)

[mxhornet]

I didn't realise there was a fell running champs at World level, mountain running yes. Lots of the longer courses aren't pure running, scrambling and or walking on steepest slopes and with low cloud cover you need to run off of bearings.

Anyway not looking for an arguement

[seabird]

On "recces"

My running club entered a race along the Leeds/Liverpool Canal Tow path for which they organised a recce.

Caused great amusement amongst the minority of orienteers in the club.