Well after yesterdays SI shenanigans the Brits struggle again in the Middle with both Scott and Hollie dropping their SI cards. I heard they switched back to normal SI cards. Perhaps they didn't provide wrist cords.
Helena Jannson and Thierry Gieorgiou with the wins and Cat (15th) and GG (18th) first Brits. Cat recovering well after an early miss.
World Cups Round 2 - Norway & Sweden
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Re: World Cups Round 2 - Norway & Sweden
To oblivion and beyond....
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buzz - addict
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Re: World Cups Round 2 - Norway & Sweden
Re: Voiding
On the SOFT website, disturbingly it has the organisers as saying.... "Detta är ny teknik. Det är första gången som vi testar detta. Vi har inte kunnat testa detta på någon tävling," Which means, "This is new technology. This is the first time we (the organisers) have tested it (SI Air). We have not been able to test it at another competition (ie, they hadnt actually used it in a competition before).
This is all very bizarre as we were using it the last 3 weeks at Stockholm City Cup races - the most recent one being this Wednesday. SI Air has been in Sweden for some time.
Good thing they aren't organising a WOC anytime soon. Oh hang on......
I am fairly confident that if it had happened at a Swedish League race for example, the Swedes would not have voided the course.
Poor Yannick - I hope he wins WOC. I think he is now the fastest in the field in a straight line and his O skills are smooth. I like his chances...
On the SOFT website, disturbingly it has the organisers as saying.... "Detta är ny teknik. Det är första gången som vi testar detta. Vi har inte kunnat testa detta på någon tävling," Which means, "This is new technology. This is the first time we (the organisers) have tested it (SI Air). We have not been able to test it at another competition (ie, they hadnt actually used it in a competition before).
This is all very bizarre as we were using it the last 3 weeks at Stockholm City Cup races - the most recent one being this Wednesday. SI Air has been in Sweden for some time.
Good thing they aren't organising a WOC anytime soon. Oh hang on......
I am fairly confident that if it had happened at a Swedish League race for example, the Swedes would not have voided the course.
Poor Yannick - I hope he wins WOC. I think he is now the fastest in the field in a straight line and his O skills are smooth. I like his chances...
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Ravinous - light green
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Re: World Cups Round 2 - Norway & Sweden
graeme wrote:We know that units not responding properly isn't even grounds for reinstatement, let alone voiding. So presumably the problem is the second thing, that the organisers tried to fix the problem?
Voiding and reinstatement are 2 different things.
If these were set in a mode that meant some had to wait (or do a fast punch then return and repunch) and others could just zoom through [I'm guessing on exact meaning of ECO mode] then that is an issue of fairness in an event where literally every second counts. I suspect it'd be this unfairness that caused the voiding.
[quote="graeme] It might be nice if people in charge of putting units out in major competitions had some idea of the issues ... [/quote]
Hmm, we have some novel punching for ETOC 2016 ... I'm worried now.
JK
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Re: World Cups Round 2 - Norway & Sweden
Ravinous wrote:Re: Voiding
I am fairly confident that if it had happened at a Swedish League race for example, the Swedes would not have voided the course.
I see Daniel Hubmann comments https://www.facebook.com/dhubmann/posts/1135035089843752
as far as I know the problem with the punching didn't affect the top of the result list.
Presumably because the incorrectly setup units were swapped out before the fastest runners went out. In a sense things did get tested before soem of the competition.
Like the forest races it's rough for the early starters, but I can see the point of not voiding and not having to say:
Sorry Yannick we've decided to void the competition although the top of the results wasn't affected. But you will get first start in the forest tomorrow.
Perhaps a subject for a CompassSport poll some time?
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Re: World Cups Round 2 - Norway & Sweden
graeme wrote:We know that units not responding properly isn't even grounds for reinstatement, let alone voiding.
Unless it's the British Champs.
BUOT: Orienteering Opportunities for all students
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facebook.com/British.Uni.Orienteering
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Dave - brown
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Re: World Cups Round 2 - Norway & Sweden
Unless it is the British SPRINT Champs Dave. Claire Ward wasnt reinstated at BOC Long, despite Jess Tullie (with everything to lose - ie her Gold) vouching that Claire was there and she saw her punching. This is my topic in this issue's Editorial.
The World Cup jury would have been mixed nationality, as per the rules, (unlike Swedish WREs where they skip over some the IOF rules and do what they like). They will have looked at the race as a whole, and not just the swedes/better runners packing in the second half of the start field.
I don't think it would have occurred to the organisers that changing units mid way through a race would make it unfair, turning it in effect into 2 separate races.
If you want to maintain the quality of the event, brand, IOF, you have no choice but to void the course, and hopefully (although I doubt it as I keep trying) that the organisers will be more thorough with WOC and we can hope that 50% of the races there that they organise will not be voided.
Also, while I am chuntering, was it me or was Per Forsberg's commentary bias towards the Swedes incredible during this WCup round? % chat on Swedes must have been very high! In the long it was all about Tove and how she was going to win and then finally, when Danish coach Lars shouted up to him and said Ida Bobach is at the last control, he seemed to suddenly realise she would win, despite Ida leading from the second radio. This sort of thing happens all too often. I remember a Silva League Sprint 3? years ago with Per going mental about a succession of Swedes coming in, Jerker, Jonas, Bergman and others. Then Scott Fraser came in and, he said in a normal voice, oh and that is the winning time for Scott Fraser - he won! First time we heard his name.
The World Cup jury would have been mixed nationality, as per the rules, (unlike Swedish WREs where they skip over some the IOF rules and do what they like). They will have looked at the race as a whole, and not just the swedes/better runners packing in the second half of the start field.
I don't think it would have occurred to the organisers that changing units mid way through a race would make it unfair, turning it in effect into 2 separate races.
If you want to maintain the quality of the event, brand, IOF, you have no choice but to void the course, and hopefully (although I doubt it as I keep trying) that the organisers will be more thorough with WOC and we can hope that 50% of the races there that they organise will not be voided.
Also, while I am chuntering, was it me or was Per Forsberg's commentary bias towards the Swedes incredible during this WCup round? % chat on Swedes must have been very high! In the long it was all about Tove and how she was going to win and then finally, when Danish coach Lars shouted up to him and said Ida Bobach is at the last control, he seemed to suddenly realise she would win, despite Ida leading from the second radio. This sort of thing happens all too often. I remember a Silva League Sprint 3? years ago with Per going mental about a succession of Swedes coming in, Jerker, Jonas, Bergman and others. Then Scott Fraser came in and, he said in a normal voice, oh and that is the winning time for Scott Fraser - he won! First time we heard his name.
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Ravinous - light green
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Re: World Cups Round 2 - Norway & Sweden
Everybody knows Per Forsgard has a strong swedish bias.
In my view, no matter how good he is, he shouldn't be re-appointed.
Sadly, he's taking the lead at this year's WOC. Where, undoubtably, we will hear a great amount about Sweden.
In my view, no matter how good he is, he shouldn't be re-appointed.
Sadly, he's taking the lead at this year's WOC. Where, undoubtably, we will hear a great amount about Sweden.
From small acorns great Oak trees grow.
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Lard - diehard
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George Santayana
Ravinous wrote: you have no choice but to void the course,
It may be the right decision, but they certainly had the choice not to void.
As far as I can tell, every control had a unit which was capable of being "punched", and since it is the competitor's responsibility to ensure they punch correctly its hard to see which rule was broken leading to the voiding (DJM - any ideas?).
the organisers will be more thorough with WOC and we can hope that 50% of the races there that they organise will not be voided.
Unless the full explanation of what happened, and the rationale for the jury decision, is published there is no chance that WOC or any other future event can learn how be more thorough, no matter how much we want to. Mumbling about "eco-mode" doesn't help if there's nothing on the SI site to tell you what "eco-mode" is (I can't find it). It sounds like the same problem that allegedly led to Hollie's DQ last year ("sleep mode?"). Since IoF refuse to discuss that, it's not surprising that it happened again.
And it would be astonishing if it doesn't happen again in the future. Let's hope our WOC will be lucky.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: George Santayana
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to work for the IOF"?
At least the bar is nice and low now
graeme wrote:And it would be astonishing if it doesn't happen again in the future. Let's hope our WOC will be lucky.
At least the bar is nice and low now
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Re: World Cups Round 2 - Norway & Sweden
Lard wrote:Everybody knows Per Forsgard has a strong swedish bias.
In my view, no matter how good he is, he shouldn't be re-appointed.
Sadly, he's taking the lead at this year's WOC. Where, undoubtably, we will hear a great amount about Sweden.
He was not described as good here in Italy after last year, the words used are not, in fact, repeatable on a public forum.
hop fat boy, hop!
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madmike - guru
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Re: World Cups Round 2 - Norway & Sweden
This may sound daft, but can I suggest we have the original backup system back again.
Back in the day (WOC 1976 for example) the officials manning controls to prevent tampering, noted down the competitors numbers and the time when they punched. The timings were collated and the split times produced later the same day. From memory there were no mispunches and only three or four incorrect splits. I assume WOC 2015 and 2016 will have officials at each control to prevent tampering, so why not go the extra "mile" and get them to double up as the independent backup system. Missed numbers, can be covered by national kit, gender and description. You might need two people for the relays, hand held camera for the second spotter (oops technology?).
Whilst we rely on scores of electronic units and humans we will, like it or not, have the same problems arising. I seem to recall the London Marathon with only the finish time to worry about had/has 2/3 layers of independent timing, namely chip timing, video and stop watches! If as has been proved by trial and error, you can't be certain both the system and backup will work, then you need an independent backup. Just a suggestion.
Back in the day (WOC 1976 for example) the officials manning controls to prevent tampering, noted down the competitors numbers and the time when they punched. The timings were collated and the split times produced later the same day. From memory there were no mispunches and only three or four incorrect splits. I assume WOC 2015 and 2016 will have officials at each control to prevent tampering, so why not go the extra "mile" and get them to double up as the independent backup system. Missed numbers, can be covered by national kit, gender and description. You might need two people for the relays, hand held camera for the second spotter (oops technology?).
Whilst we rely on scores of electronic units and humans we will, like it or not, have the same problems arising. I seem to recall the London Marathon with only the finish time to worry about had/has 2/3 layers of independent timing, namely chip timing, video and stop watches! If as has been proved by trial and error, you can't be certain both the system and backup will work, then you need an independent backup. Just a suggestion.
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Re: World Cups Round 2 - Norway & Sweden
If you're worried about novel punching systems etc you can always nip along to the open "Technology Coffee" which should give plenty of time to get things sorted out before the Long race...
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greywolf - addict
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Re: World Cups Round 2 - Norway & Sweden
If the Swedes went into these WCup races without at least a test race, then they are crazy!
re: ECO mode -
Not sure if that's a translation problem, "every second time" probably means every cycle of the unit, i.e. if you hold your normal SI card in a unit the time it takes to register a 2nd time. Basically - Don't use ECO mode for orienteering, ever.
re: ECO mode -
If these were set in a mode that meant some had to wait (or do a fast punch then return and repunch) and others could just zoom through [I'm guessing on exact meaning of ECO mode] then that is an issue of fairness in an event where literally every second counts. I suspect it'd be this unfairness that caused the voiding.
SIConfigPlus wrote:Enable this flag to reduce battery consumption of your BSx7/8 when working in a BC operating mode. When this flag is enabled the device will trigger for a SportIdent Active Card [SIAC] only every second time. Also the detection range will reduce
Not sure if that's a translation problem, "every second time" probably means every cycle of the unit, i.e. if you hold your normal SI card in a unit the time it takes to register a 2nd time. Basically - Don't use ECO mode for orienteering, ever.
Andrew Dalgleish (INT)
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Re: World Cups Round 2 - Norway & Sweden
I have copied a link below to Sportident's explanation of what happened at the World Cup in Sweden, thanks to a posting by "Jagge" on Attackpoint. Sportident say it was caused by their software and "we take full responsibility for this defect, which effectively led to the inconsistent punching experience. The misconfiguration was not an operator error.
http://newsletter.sportident.com/m/6242 ... 33b287c00c
http://newsletter.sportident.com/m/6242 ... 33b287c00c
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Re: World Cups Round 2 - Norway & Sweden
very interesting, thanks maprun!
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