Planning for juniors

[johnloguk]

[quote="NeilC
Interesting, so how is the TD1 competitor expected to navigate between the two controls in such a situation? Presumably look ahead, see a control and run to it - hardly good practice. If a TD1 leg can't be planned then tape it.

If there are anomolies in the rules and guidelines then let your rules group representative know about them. Unfortunately "common sense" is commonly applied but not always sensibly.[/quote]


Of course that is what happens, you can't put 6 controls in 100 metres for heaven's sake and many clubs have areas like that. Many is the time that I've had that situation and the controller has rightly said "you don't need a control on all those junctions because they will see the next kite ahead anyway", I don't see where that is bad practice on a TD1 course, so long as it isn't every single leg.

As I said in my post, anomalies are always being identified and rules group are always tweaking the rules.

I repeat, I'm not saying go out there and ignore all rules, just be aware that slavishly following the rules doesn't guarantee a good course, I'm sure we'd all agree with that wouldn't we?

[Nails]

Actually looking up is what most juniors that i've coached don't do.

[FatBoy]

True, and not just juniors, most beginners are guilty of looking at the map too much and the ground not enough.

[Red Adder]

In reply to Neil C, when I've used an otherwise featureless point on a path as a start I have used
a surveyors wheel, from junctions at either end of
the paths to locate the point accurately (in EA forests there is always a junction at either end, trust me on this). Even with pacing I would expect (and expect other planners) to be accurate to 2-3 m not 20-30 m. If appropriate, also take a back bearing from the TD 3+ first controls to ensure that anyone choosing to run on a precise bearing to them has a fair leg.

[Nottinghamshire outlaw]

Another aspect of junior course planning which is critical and which I don't think has been mentioned on this thread (though it will have been before on another!) is that the planner and conroller take great care not to obscure important features by the overprint. Adults often complain when they cannot see a vital point feature because the circle has not been broken but this is FAR more significant for the TD1 and 2 runners. Take an example from last Sunday when lots of children on the yellow course went wrong between 10 and 11 because the vital decision point junction was obscured by the circle and practically the whole path from that decision point to the control at the end of the leg was covered by the purple line. I know of some children who were in tears as a result of their errors because they couldn't work out the route to the next control or went the 'wrong' way.

[tendon]

For instance, planners rightly ignore the rule about placing controls on every decision point to avoid 6 controls in 100 metres when there are lots of paths.

You could of course argue that an area with 6 path junctions in 100 metres is too complex to host a TD1 or 2 course anyway, and the fact that you are having to bend the rules to make it fit simply highlights this.

By all means plan the course however you want, but always go back to the guidelines to review if there are deviations. There are not that many criteria to check - maybe 8 per leg for TD2. The guidelines are there to ensure consistency, otherwise, common sense prevails, and the length of this thread proves there are many different verisons of that!

I look forward to Barry's next article on TD2 courses in CompassSport.

[roadrunner]

For instance, planners rightly ignore the rule about placing controls on every decision point to avoid 6 controls in 100 metres when there are lots of paths.

This is a point that used to confuse me, but there was a very good article in the last CompassSport on planning White courses:

Continuing along a large track, with a small path going off to one side, is not a Decision Point as it does not require a change in direction. You may choose to put a control there ... but it is not absolutely necessary.

(The article does go on to say that, if the junction's one where the competitor might think they need to change direction, then it's a good idea to put a control there.)

[NeilC]

Johnloguk, as a sort of planners conundrum perhaps you could post one of those sections of map with 6 or so decision points in 100m. It might be interesting to hear how others would deal with having this section on a TD1 course.

[johnloguk]

If only it was that simple Neil, sadly the map doesn't always really reflect the nature of the ground, you need to be there to appreciate what I mean, and this doesn't mean that the map isn't accurate.

Actually I think Roadrunner summed it up well for me, and I agree that the Compasssport article was excellent on this. The nub of the argument is when does a path junction constitute a decision point, it isn't always cut and dried?

Where you have a straight large path with less distinct small ones branching of it most people would agree on where to place kites and where not to. But if the main path meanders around a bit and is less distinct in some places than others, and the paths branching off it are at subtle angles and also look more or less distinct from different viewpoints, and all these factors change with the time of year and vegetation.....It's what I meant earlier by subtleties in the terrain that aren't (can't be) reflected on the map.

We have a rough open area with a myriad of paths of all shapes and sizes. There is one area where at least 8 of them criss-cross in the space of about 50metres. We could tape a route for the white course through this junction, or avoid it all together, but by judicious placing of a couple of kites we have never had a problem getting kids through it. Some will negotiate the leg because they have their map round the right way and can work out the paths, others will simply carry on to the next kite that they can see 50m away (making sure there aren't other kites nearby to distract them), either way it works. Now it may not be strictly to the rules, on the other hand a couple of controllers have said it is, even rules can be interpreted, especially by orienteers ( ). But the bottom line is that no kids have ever had a problem with it, or similar legs that I've been involved with. The main thing on a TD1 course is getting kids round it without mishap, while giving them some feeling of challenge and achievement.

[NeilC]

I agree that whether a junction is or isn't a decision point is not always clear. As Tendon says consistency is most important. If the map or ground indicates that there is a decision point then this shouldn't be ignored - either a control must be put there or the competitor taped through it. The concept that you should be able to get round a TD1 course without a map (perhaps we could also add and without looking more than 10 yards ahead) should still hold. If there was a thick fog it should still be possible to navigate around the course without having to scan ahead for the control.

[Gross]

And what we really should be doing for juniors is the same as in East Europe. Here in Lithuania the young junior courses are a taped route marked on the map & on the ground with controls at decision points. Now sometimes the taped route doesn't follow the direct / quickest / best line & if a competitor want he/she/it can cut corners....

[seabird]

In the light of Gross's suggestion I've just had a look back at the White course results from about 10 recent events. By and large the times tend to fit in with the guidelines which suggest the courses are being planned right. Arnside Knott even gave us the map which showed an appropriately planned course.

Some of the longer times are for very young children, who I hope, given their age, were being accompanied by adults.

There were a few worryinging splits with children clearly taking massively longer than the average. There were 4 youngsters (all declared as 10) who went very wrong finding the 5th control at Bestwood on 26/11. At Epping on 19/11 there were 2 went glaringly wrong trying to find the 3rd control. At Allestree Park on the same day one child took 1 hour longer than the rest to find the first control! If anyone has those courses or knows what the problems were it might be instructive for all of us.

My experiences of white courses over the past few years are that the majority of competitors are either accompanied or shadowed. Is this in anyway a parental response to inconsistent planning? Many of the children who do White seem to be of string course age (7 and under). Does this lead to a relaxation in planning standards? Or does it just pressurise children to be attempting Yellow possibly before they are ready? My recent experience of yellow courses which I have attended as an official or competitorhas been that the times for most competitors have been right. Is that the general perception.

My initial response to Gross's idea was that it should be applied to the string course, with competitor given proper maps with controls at real decision points. However practically this could mean that they are competing with the same territory on the ground as the real TD1 and TD2 courses. I think Gross's suggestion may be worth a trial at Training/Informal events at least.

[Mrs H.]

The Misses H. competed on courses such as Gross described as 7 and 9 year olds in 2001 at the French 5 Days and 3 days. They were called Jalone and were fantastic.

They allowed youngsters to go on terrain which might not otherwise allow a TD1 course (there was no TD1 courses on offer). They were also a whole lot more exciting and adventurous than the standard white and yellow course and allowed the older children to cut corners where they felt confiden to do so. I have always wondered why they are never used in GB.

No one has touched on the fact that white a yellow courses can be pretty boring - the jalones were crossing fairy glade and hobbit country. Not a grid of paths.

[NeilC]

They allowed youngsters to go on terrain which might not otherwise allow a TD1 course (there was no TD1 courses on offer). They were also a whole lot more exciting and adventurous than the standard white and yellow course and allowed the older children to cut corners where they felt confiden to do so. I have always wondered why they are never used in GB.

To be fair some clubs have put on "off-string" courses where the youngsters have to use the map to navigate to extra controls off the string. As Seabird says - this is probably the best place to introduce fairy glades.

[Gross]

Well I this isn't set up for an off string . This is set up to offer a real technical orienteering experience for those who feel confident enough to move beyond the taped route.

Over here these courses are very successfully completed by an age range of 7 & 8 year olds to less confident 12 year olds and so on.

It works....