New Event Structure

[SJC]

Under the original ESRG proposals they would be L3 (Local) and L2 (Standard) respectively, with the latter event contributing to the new rankings system.. but now, as far as I can tell, they'll both be lumped together as L3...and IMHO, any system that can't distinguish them (but no doubt will count plenty of TD4 bramble nightmareas as L2 or even L1) is pretty worthless...

But next summer there are events like the Scottish 6 Day, Twin Peaks, and Springtime in Shropshire, all of which, I would have hoped, would be high quality age class events. Yet BOF, in its search for equality for all, seems to want to ban the age class element and force us all into colour coded classes. (I just hope the clubs involved ignore any central dictat and leave them as they are).

Furthermore, there would seem to be nothing in the proposals that would differentiate these from the average, run of the mill, current District event. and IMHO, any system that can't distinguish between them is pretty worthless...

[awk]

.. but now, as far as I can tell, they'll both be lumped together as L3...and IMHO, any system that can't distinguish them is pretty worthless...

agreed: from what you describe and I've read, first should be L3, Culbin event L2. Which is why Focus has to be wrong.

Yet BOF, in its search for equality for all, seems to want to ban the age class element and force us all into colour coded classes. (I just hope the clubs involved ignore any central dictat and leave them as they are).

That is not what the new structure is about; the new proposals do not ban age classes at all. What they state is that courses are colour coded, and are open to all competitively. If an organising team wish to bolt on age class competitions as subsets, then they can. But that is part of the organiser's decision making, not part of the pre-determined requirements. Whilst most events will find the colour structure more than sufficient, I would expect within L2 to find some events offering age classes within courses with prize lists etc. (If you want to compete for the M50 competition, then run Blue), particularly for the bigger international style events such as the Six Day, association championships and so on. This already happens for things like Future Champs Cup, association championships, selections etc. for Juniors.

So you might get Black course (inc M21, M35), Brown course (inc M40, M45), and so on (age classes/colours only for example purposes!). Or you could have ten year age bands, or just Vets, Supervets (as in most urban and sprint events) etc. it's up to you as an organiser.

Furthermore, there would seem to be nothing in the proposals that would differentiate these from the average, run of the mill, current District event. and IMHO, any system that can't distinguish between them is pretty worthless...

Only the range of courses available, prizes, promotion etc. After all, how do you tell now between a less than average run of the mill regional event with only 3 competitors in your class on a nondescript area and the Scottish 6-day? (Or between the former and a top notch C4 with super courses on a super area and loads of people turning up)? As it always has been and always will be, the real differentiation lies in the organisation and the promotion, not in what grade the event is at.

[graeme]

Hmm, by your criteria MADO is almost a level 2 event (preprinted maps, SI), so suitable for newcomers,

Indeed, by my criteria, you should aspire to be level 2. Uncannily, you focussed on exactly the parts of the review which have been changed or misreported.

but unfortunately by only offering a limited range of courses and events being controlled by people who aren't even grade 3 Controllers they must be level 3 events. Apparently we should stop marketing them at newcomers as not being up to the job

By my criteria, the limited range of courses should have no effect on level. A standard quality event aimed at everyone, just elites, or just novices is still a standard quality event and should be marketable as such.

The controllers issue is more debatable. In my experience events without "two pairs of eyes" on the planning are prone to errors (yes, even ones planned/organised/mapped by me ). That's why we had the controller requirement for level 2.

I accept having an experienced but unqualified "checker" will usually work (as at MADO/PT etc.) I doubt whether your "controllers" would have any trouble passing the grade 3 controllers course (I'll let awk rant about the other requirements).

But its hard to define what's meant by "experienced" without undermining the whole controller concept, which is why we recommended that events should have controllers. As I said before, requiring a "level 2" controller for standard events is absurd.

Rj asks if I understand what I'm trying to do. Anyone who has been on a committee producing a report then reviewed by another committee know that any clarity of purpose is hard to discern. So I'll answer only for myself.

I'm very clear about this - one only needs to look at the age profile to see that the sport is aging and dying fast. Most junior recruits are lost (as in most sports), so we need new adult recruits. This is what I'm trying to do.

I see two blocks to recruitment - at bigger events younger people are barred from short courses, and many events aimed at newcomers are third-rate quality. Removing age classes addresses the first problem. Bringing introductory events up to "standard" quality (as they already are in many places) addresses the second.

There's other stuff in the review, most of it good, but secondary to these main goals.
There are also aspects of the junior and elite programmes which negatively affect these goals (IMO), but these were off-remit.

[awk]

(I'll let awk rant about the other requirements).

In terms of the proposals, I've got nothing to rant about; as far as I can see they were all pretty clear and straightforward: any rant I might have, if that is what it is, is over the way it's apparently been advertised, at least as others have reported it (my Focus is still yet to arrive). IT sounds like some substantially misleading misreporting has been going on.
Certainly, nothing to disagree with in your post graeme.

[SIman]

My copy of Focus and the club copy have not arrived, but Rocky got his copy on Wednesday This is what is says about the subject of this forum.

Event Structure for British Orienteering

A new three tier structure of events will be introduced to British Orienteering from 2009 to give a better range of local events, accommodate different formats and to give more focus to major events. The new system will give more opportunities for results at events to be included in a new national ranking list.

A working group was set up in 2007 to look at the current event structure and make recommendations. The report was published in September 2007 with wide consultation during the autumn. The recommendations were adopted by Council in January 2008. Since then Event Committee and its constituent groups has been working to develop the necessary infrastructure. Inevitably 2009 will be a transition year with the new structure to be phased in from the 1 st January 2009 and be fully implemented by the 1 st January 2010.

Local Events should be the focus for clubs, aimed at providing easily accessible events for members and newcomers. The format of events will suit local needs and range from the low key Saturday morning and summer evening event to larger events in a variety of formats, all aimed at providing a good programme with the emphasis on local participation and needs. All currently registered C4 & C5 events will become Local Events.

Regional Events will provide quality events attractive to orienteers over a larger geographical area. Quality will encompass the standard of the area, mapping, planning, organisation and competition. Courses will not be age class based thus improving the pathway for novices to progress from local events. The current age class structure is a barrier particularly to young adult novices.
Events will not be exclusively classic cross country events. Middle, Sprint and Urban Races can also be included.

Guidelines will provide an extended colour coded system for use at cross country events - both local and regional. Much thought has gone into developing this structure recognising the need to make it easily understood by non-orienteers and existing orienteers alike. The existing names to designate Technical Difficulty (TD) have been kept with the ability to have different length courses within the colour as required. Competitors will be able to choose a course based on TD and length. The number of courses used will be determined by clubs depending on the anticipated entry. Age classes can be mapped onto this course structure to allow age class prizes to be awarded e.g. Association Championships. All currently registered C3 events will become Regional events. Clubs can apply to register other events, including larger C4 events, as Regional events if they meet the guidelines.

National Events will be the only events run in age classes. Many current national events in their present format will disappear. Area Championships will provide high quality events at this level in addition to the JK and British Championships (including Sprint and Middle for all age groups). Midland, Northern and Southern Championships will be staged in England with Scotland,
Wales and Northern Ireland having the option of upgrading their Association Championship to National level. All events at National level will be supported by the recently formed Major Event Committee.

The ranking system will be adapted to use the new structure with the ability to view the list in a variety of ways. The Masters Cup will also continue to run but based only on National events.

The changes to the event structure should enable clubs to provide ample opportunity at a local level to introduce newcomers to the sport and to promote new formats of orienteering while still providing opportunities for traditionalists to enjoy a quality Sunday morning run in the forest.

Further information will be published on the British Orienteering website during the autumn. This will include revised Guidelines and Frequently Asked Questions.

[SJC]

After all, how do you tell now between a less than average run of the mill regional event with only 3 competitors in your class on a nondescript area and the Scottish 6-day? (Or between the former and a top notch C4 with super courses on a super area and loads of people turning up)?

You can't. But equally as well you don't need to take away the existing structure to achieve what most people seem to want.
Simply get events registered at the right level.
Scottish 6-day and top notch C4 with super courses on a super area and loads of people turning up should both be registered as C3 events.
Less than average run of the mill regional event with only 3 competitors in your class on a nondescript area should be a C4.

Current C5 Local events simply stay as they are.

It seems to me as though the whole event structure is being thrown into confusion when there is no need for it.

[SeanC]

Please, for the benefit of the confused like me , could we agree what the new event structure is before it gets confused with what people think it should be?

After reading the clip from focus, here's a complete dummies guide which I might just remember. Please let me know which bits are right/wrong.

National event; AKA level 1. Replaces existing C2 and C1 events.

Regional event: AKA level 2. AKA Standard event (though that name seems to have gone). Can use colour coded or age based results or both, but courses must conform to colour coded standards*. Replaces existing C3 and the bigger C4 events. Needs a controller.

Local event: AKA level 3. Replaces existing C5 and smaller C4 events. Controlling optional**. Many different formats.

* Assume these are to be the same as now?
** I hope so, could be difficult getting controllers for all our local events.

I know I could ask BOF, but it seems the experts are contributing to this thread.

[awk]

Simply get events registered at the right level.
Scottish 6-day and top notch C4 with super courses on a super area and loads of people turning up should both be registered as C3 events.
Less than average run of the mill regional event with only 3 competitors in your class on a nondescript area should be a C4.

Can't be done under the old system if you are to follow guidelines. Nor could any of the new formats be fitted in.

Looking at the stuff copied by SIman (thank you!), it's reasonably OK, but with one enormous proviso: C4s should NOT by default be mapped on to Level 3, and I think (but may be wrong) that this is a mistake - if it has been introduced, it's come in later than our report, and has been slipped in without my notice for one. I would hope it is simply a typo, but it is a fairly big one!!!

SeanC - what you say is pretty much how I think the new structure should be, but isn't, unfortunately, what Focus says. It says ALL C4s are Level 3s, and I think that's wrong. C4s should normally map on to Level 2 (but, again, something may have crept in). One other proviso: if age classes are used, they are normally a subset of the course results, something along the lines below. There'll need to be a bit of flexibility on this when coming to big international events like the 6-day.

Blue
1 AN Other M21
2 Juan Oldie M45-1
3 A Woman W21-1
4 A Vet M45-2 etc.

[DJM]

I too am not sure that Focus is correct about all L2 events having to be colour based, as this was certainly not the view if the review group. Indeed the draft guideline for new Level 2 events says:

Multi-day holiday events, attracting a significant foreign entry, may wish to use a full set of IOF age classes with Long and Short courses. Such events should base their class combinations and course length ratios on the table in Guideline C: Area Championships.

[roadrunner]

I see two blocks to recruitment - at bigger events younger people are barred from short courses ...

But wasn't that the reason for the introduction of M/W21 V and N courses - which have not proved at all popular. How will it be different this time? Is course length the real issue, anyway? SLOW seem to get plenty of newcomers along to their "Trail Challenge" series, and these are 10k or half marathon distance.

[SeanC]

Thanks AWK for the confirmation.

The focus article posted by SImon can be interpreted differently in different places.

It says

"All currently registered C4 & C5 events will become Local Events."

but then later on it says

"Clubs can apply to register other events, including larger C4 events, as Regional events if they meet the guidelines."

So I assume next year's C4's could be re-registered as a regional event.

Part of the problem is the label "local". For example I wouldn't want to see our district event at Westerham in a couple of weeks to be seen by other clubs as a local event in the current sense, we need you to come to this event not just because it's a great area but also to help our economics. So in future there may be pressure to make a similar event a regional event. If we can meet the standards then is there a problem?

One positive aspect of the review might be to stimulate clubs into thinking about what to do on Sundays. At least in my area, Saturday and midweek events are more recently established and are increasing in popularity, whereas the Sunday model of some regional and some district events was established a while ago and might not suit the current times so well (or might do, carefully sitting on the fence..... )

[awk]

"Clubs can apply to register other events, including larger C4 events, as Regional events if they meet the guidelines." So I assume next year's C4's could be re-registered as a regional event.

I would expect so. I think the emphasis is wrong here. The intention was that C4s would by default become L2s, and that only the more limited colour type events would go under L3. The automatic bit should have been to make them L2, with clubs being able to reregister at L3 if they wanted.

If we can meet the standards then is there a problem?

As I see it, absolutely not, rather the opposite, because, as you see, L2 should be the norm for current C4s.

[greywolf]

If we can meet the standards then is there a problem?

That might depend on what these "standards" are - quality of area? quality of map? number of courses? qualifications of event officials? and who gets to decide - is it the clubs or the associations?

[graeme]

I see two blocks to recruitment - at bigger events younger people are barred from short courses ...

But wasn't that the reason for the introduction of M/W21 V and N courses - which have not proved at all popular. How will it be different this time? Is course length the real issue, anyway? SLOW seem to get plenty of newcomers along to their "Trail Challenge" series, and these are 10k or half marathon distance.

Good questions!

Having spoken to people about 21V, the problem is that people don't seem inspired by running a course of their own (even if they win, which usually they do as the only entrant). With the new system, they will be able to see progress, finishing higher each time against their (older) peers, until ready to move up. Of course, WE know they could look across to whichever other class ran the same course, but the novices don't.

Trail Challenge is a success, it's exactly the sort of event I had in mind with the level 2 events - preprinted maps, epunching, choice of courses (not sure about controllers). I believe that novices will be attracted to good quality events, regardless of format, "standard" event guideline try to help clubs understand what a good quality event is. The rather similar 21N is a failure because it's viewed as a side-event to the proper "TD5" courses.

Course length is an issue, but only if measured in time. I don't see long times at Trail Challenge.

Part of the problem is the label "local".

Yes, this is becoming clear. "Informal" would be better.

[SIman]

I hesitate to post before all the details have come out, but that hasn't stopped many other so here goes.

Is is going to matter to the average orienteer what standard an event is? They will choose which events to go to based on many other things, previous experience, details in publicity, whether the event is is a series etc.

I do have some unanswered questions.
Publicity: At present the BOF fixure list printed in CompassSport and several other places does not include C5, O5 etc. Will L3 be treated the same?
Discount: As I understand it, C4 and above are expected to charge non members more than members. Will all L3 have a single adult rate?