Should the sprint race be part of the overall JK?

[Neil M40]

but will venues as good be found in the lakes or other remote areas

British Elite sprints was in an area in the South Lakes in 2004 (not sure exactly where - I wasn't there - but it was a bit of forest with contours and rocks and stuff), and in Williamson Park, Lancaster in 2002. Neither of them was anything like Guildford, but sprint racing doesn't have to be urban/campus style. Williamson Park was very good.

Or would people prefer all sprints to be more like Guildford?

[Mrs H]

Yes i was thinking about it a bit more seriously while I continue to wade through the JK washing. what would probably be required would be an O-ringen approach like this year in Dalarna - you know - organisers just hire the whole place - we fill the accomm and take opver all the amenities, map the grounds (possibly install permanent course as act of good will) and just run riot for the whole weekend.

what a blast! If anyone manages to get it sorted just let me know - I would love to get my teeth into such a project

Just seen Neil's post - i think associated with the Jk the Guildford style is great - and not too knackering for the rest of the weekend.

Lancaster uni has a good map with some proper woodland at the back along the motorway.

[graeme]

British Elite sprints was in an area in the South Lakes in 2004 ...
would people prefer all sprints to be more like Guildford?

Guildford-style every time. To do well at that British Elites (Ulpha) you had to risk getting injured, most people emerged bloody, and several injured. I accept that some people like that sort of thing, as the technical orienteering was excellent. But especially at the start of a multi day, I'd prefer something less risky. The elite races seem to have dropped the "its a knockout" stuff prevalent in early PWT (water-splash/crag jumping).

I didn't run at Williamson, but it looked absolutely fine to me.

[DJM]

alcumbria wrote:
Friday should be left as optional to allow people to travel.

I wonder ... it could be that those who really want to get to the Sprint actually make the effort and do get there. The fact that 79% of M21s at the JK also entered the Sprint race suggests this might be so (of course, many wouldn't have had family pressures to contend with).

Be that as it may, if travelling is the reason why 48% of those at the JK did not enter the Sprint race, then there should be a clear link between distance from Guildford and entering the race. An analysis of those who entered the Sprint, grouped by Association, as a percentage of those entering Days 2 and 3 (52% overall) shows:-

32% EAOA
45% EMOA
47% NEOA
87% NIOA
43% NWOA
50% SCOA
55% SEOA
61% SOA
47% SWOA
45% WMOA
36% WOA
47% YHOA

There doesn't seem to be a clear pattern here. Indeed, the two largest percentages are attached to the two most distant Associations, Northern Ireland and Scotland!

[andy]

There doesn't seem to be a clear pattern here. Indeed, the two largest percentages are attached to the two most distant Associations, Northern Ireland and Scotland!

remember that flying and hiring a car from Gatwick is probably easier and less stressful than a drive from the north of England.
We flew from Edinburgh at about 8am and were in Guildford at about 12

[Tatty]

Areas like a Uni campus any day

[PG]

What about producing both three-day and two-day combined results, with the three-day result converted to points using the old six-day formula of 1000 points for the winner (many people seem to find the current Scottish 6-day formula too opaque). This method is used for some foreign competitions with middle and long distance races in one meeting, such as Portugal O-meeting.

Just the two-day winners would get prizes, but three-day winners could be announced at the prize-giving. We could run them in parallel for a couple of years, then review the take-up.

As a matter of interest, how much do people think a 20 minute sprint race slows you down for two subsequent days? And is the impact greater as you get older?

[Simon E]

But especially at the start of a multi day, I'd prefer something less risky.

Interesting that you see Guildford as "less risky". We realised in the days before the event that Guildford was potentially the most dangerous of the JK areas given the weather forecast. A nice coating of ice or snow on those steps plus the chance to fall a long way onto concrete would have made things very interesting. Our contingency plans included the possibility of letting people go out on the area but not providing any timing thus removing the race element. Luckily we didn't need to find out if this would have been a realistic option.

[MacMan]

Interesting that you see Guildford as "less risky". ... Our contingency plans included the possibility of letting people go out on the area but not providing any timing thus removing the race element.

Come on Simon don't tell everyone all our problems otherwise I'll have no controllers' conundrum left for the next conference ... However what is said is true and I wonder how many friends I would have made if we did execute on "Plan C" ... entrants can have a map of the area, controls are in position but no results, no official race ...

[Ed]

As I left the JK Sprint as it was starting raining/snowing I said that I was glad I was running while it was dry as I wouldn't have liked to have been throwing myself down the steps while they were wet and greasy, let alone icy and snowy.

As for injuries being more likely on Sprint - to be honest, to do well at any elite race you've got to be running hard enough and taking risks that you could get seriously injured. Campuses and parks with steep man-made slopes and steps are probably more risky in this sense than forest areas - particularly since this is probably not the terrain that runners are used to.

I think if you'd tried putting on the JK Sprint without timing as a safety measure then you'd have got as much grief as the JK '98 day 2 (where the area was safe enough for oldies and kids but not for the rest*) - either it's too dangerous to be orienteering or it's safe to be racing, apart from which it would inevitably have been unofficially timed by at least a significant minority.

*I know this isn't an entirely fair representation since the longer courses were going to the higher, rougher and more snowy/icy bits of the area, but it is how the decision has been remembered!

[Vidalos]

I think that sprint racing a great innovation for orienteering and given the opportunity it provides for the visibility of our sport it should be encouraged for this alone as it provides a more media and sponsor friendly event.

As for the JK and sprint racing I would encourage it's inclusion to be part of the overall event. We have individual championship events for Sprint, Middle and Long so why not have a combined champion? .

Depending on the time of year Easter falls it's normally after the clocks have changed and therefore normally gives the possibility of late afternoon / early evening running to help with travel. It seems less affected by late start time bias, this year I had a 12.05 start and actually found this an advantage not to have the distraction of other runners in the area (may not work for all but it did for me)

So I support the view of inclusion and lets find ways to make it work and be accessible to all

[graeme]

A nice coating of ice or snow on those steps plus the chance to fall a long way onto concrete would have made things very interesting.

That's exactly what I faced test-running in Edinburgh. After a couple of nasty skids I gave up - cobbles are even worse than concrete.

Our contingency plans included the possibility of letting people go out on the area but not providing any timing thus removing the race element. Luckily we didn't need to find out if this would have been a realistic option.

And that's exactly the contingency plan we had. Of course, our weather seems to be better than yours, so it wasn't an issue . Like Ed says, we'd have got grief, but probably not as much as if someone got badly hurt (e.g. a pedestrian hit by an out-of-control runner).


Do I win the controller's conundrum ?

Graeme
PS Even that JK didn't turn out so bad for some of us - tossed off elite (schadenfreude when they only got a poxy short race) I got a proper run on day 1, won one of the M21L courses, didn't have to get up for an early start, and had a free day 2 to run up Cader Idris in the sunshine .

[IanD]

There are still many people who don't take part in the Sprint, either because they don't like the concept, or for logistical reasons.

If the Sprint becomes an integral part of the scoring for the "main" individual competition, will these people:
1) find a way of running in the Sprint?
2) stop coming to the JK?

Perhaps the best solution would be to have multiple champions and prizes of roughly equal status for
1) the "forest" individual days (whether combined, as now for the non-elite, or separate prizes for each day
2) the Sprint
3) an overall champion based on some sort of combined scoring system

That way, those who like the Sprint could view the overall champion as the "real" winner, while those who don't could view the forest champion as the "real" winner.

Another argument for having serious prizes/champions for each day is that it allows those who plan/organise one day to have a chance of winning on the others.

[Marco Polo]

A slightly different question which RJ touched on. The logistics may be a reason for not including the JK sprint in the the overall competition- but an alternative test of how seriously we take the event would be to make it a ranking event. As far as I can see the British and JK sprints are not ranking events. Should they be?

MP

[DJM]

The JK Sprint this year was officially a level 2 event and will therefore count towards the ranking scheme. The British Sprint Champs is also level 2.