VHIs

[SIman]

A bad day for the Scottish VHI team on Saturday was compounded by a small affair in Glasgow later in the day.
In the relays Wales were the first team back followed by four England teams. Four of Scotland's teams then finished giving England a strong overnight lead.
Saturday evening's meal in a magnificent Highland banqueting hall must have inspired the Scots who fought back in the individual races to win several classes.
Wales maintained their string of victories over Ireland but it was a close thing at the national.
Results are here.

[EddieH]

I am resurrecting a subject I last posed in CompassSport quite a few yeArs ago. The strict balance of age and sex groups required on each relay team MASSIVELY penalises any country with ANY weakness in any oder age group - i.e. all except England. Quite simply we HAVE to have a W50 or above in all 6 realy teams. With the difference between the top and bottom being well into double figured minutes on a short course this eans that bar major cock-ups, England cannot fail to be utterly dominant. (Wales usually get one top team - but then they do have Liz Campbell)

I don't dispute that this is fair, but is it what we really want? This weekend Scotland beat England comprehensively in the individual but as far as the overall competition is concerned it was already a dead duck after the relay whitewash.

Currently people are allocated points according to age and sex. These amount to exactly 18 times 6 for a full country's team. Each of up to 6 teams MUST have 2 men and 2 women, and must have 18 points leaving absolutely no leeway. Surely if the teams had to have at least 15 (or even 16) points that would just provide a sliver of choice which might make the whole affair more exciting.

[EddieH]

Oh , and as for the event - well done to STAG for masterminding 2 events on a November weekend several hours from their place of residence. What a pity that National events seem to have lost their status as Errochty with a fantastic bit of remapping and excellent planning proved a very worthy and enjoyable event.

[Becks]

I'll second that Eddie - after seeing the map for Errochty I wasn't really looking forward to it, but the planning was excellent, the forest was beautiful, and the course was a true challenge. Thanks STAG!

[J.Tullster]

Yeah, third that. Well done stirling surveys. One of the best maps I've ran on I reckon. Great course too. Crackin

[Axel]

Eddie, Scotland perhaps might not have won as many Individual age classses had the Brit Schools Champs not been on the same weekend. Don't forget you did have home advantage which usually helps. Lastly I also heard one of your class winners had updated the map at sometime?? Well done England as usual you thrashed the Jocks!!

[EddieH]

I don't know who you mean regarding the map updating - I think you got this wrong. One of our stars did not run precisely because he had updated the map.

Anyway Axel my point was unrelated to us thrashing you in the individual. The point is the individual is always likely to be close and is thus exciting in itself, but the way the relay teams are required to be selected means that the sheer numbers of orienteers in England will always be an advantage. This may be fair, but isn't a close result more exciting and meaningful for everyone?

[batty]

I think it is poor team management that Scotland do not win the relays. How can a team with John Musgrave and Lorna Eades fail to come in the top 5? If Scotland can win the individual event then surely they should be able to arrange teams to do better than they do. You do not have to have a W 50/60 in every team as the 50 + could be men. What will you be saying in a few years time when your present strong 35's and 40's reach 50+. You can't change the goalposts just because it will suit your particular team at that time. As it happens the first W60 in the individual was a scot.

[EddieH]

I have no idea who you are Batty, but the balance of sex and points required is highly restrictive and massively rewards strength in depth which England should always have purely because of its size. Scotland are disadvantaged, but Wales and Ireland are devastated by the requirements. Yes Wales can get a winning team, and Ireland one acceptable one, but the rest have very little chance.

I repeat - this is nothing to do with losing - I simply believe the whole thing will carry more interest if the result of the competition becomes more uncertain. Just look at the Ryder Cup - originally Britain vs USA no-one was interested, then it was opened to Europe, but still the Yanks won. It was only when Europe won that it suddenly became such a "major" event in the media calendar.

[graeme]

Firstly, to echo some of the comments about the event. Errochty isn't that good an area - if you had good courses it's in a large part down to the planner. The map wasn't that good at the Scottish Champs - the coordinator took that on board and got a total remap, which Stirling's did very well (and which got me a place on the team when Steve Barrett was ineligible).

Meanwhile, down at the other end the white and yellow courses were truly brilliant. In total disregard for the guidelines white went out and back along the same road, with a "punch the right control" challenge. A loop using the muddy, tussocky rides could easily have met the guidelines, but would have been really horrible for little legs. Yellow went across fields added to the map for just this purpose, an unusually far-sighted piece of coordination.

The planner, map-commissioner and coordinator would all deserve praise and a well earned rest. Except that Terry O'Brien is all of these people and his next event is tomorrow

Eddie's point about the relays is best made by the results. Our slowest runner was 8 mins down on long, 7 on medium and 27 on short, with an even spread in between. Performances by short course runners are almost four times as important in determining results as those by the long and medium runners (more, since they're running the anchor legs). And these people typically come from the smaller age-classes where finding ultra-competitive athletes is more difficult.

[greywolf]

Eddie - maybe the Scottish team should relax its selection criteria - SOA website says:
"Eligibility is limited to BOF members who are either native born Scots, or those who have been resident in Scotland for the last two complete years and whose primary club is a Scottish club."

however the BOF website says:
To be eligible to represent a country in a Home International (HI) a person must be a current British Orienteering member and be:
# Eligible by Birth. Be born in that country OR
# Eligible by Parentage. Have a parent who was born in that country OR
# Eligible by Residence. Have established permanent residence in that country for at least one year.

WOA says more or less the same as BOF, can't find anything on the NIOA website but I assume Irish qualification follows Jack Charlton era footy rules

[Big Jon]

Eddie, Scotland perhaps might not have won as many Individual age classses had the Brit Schools Champs not been on the same weekend. Don't forget you did have home advantage which usually helps. Lastly I also heard one of your class winners had updated the map at sometime?? Well done England as usual you thrashed the Jocks!!

Check your sources a bit more carefully, Axel, before casting nasty assertions about cheating Scottish class winners.
Ps I hadn't realised so many top English oldies were teachers who were taking pupils to the English Schools Champs.

[King Penguin]

Eddie - maybe the Scottish team should relax its selection criteria - SOA website says:
"Eligibility is limited to BOF members who are either native born Scots, or those who have been resident in Scotland for the last two complete years and whose primary club is a Scottish club."

however the BOF website says:
To be eligible to represent a country in a Home International (HI) a person must be a current British Orienteering member and be:
# Eligible by Birth. Be born in that country OR
# Eligible by Parentage. Have a parent who was born in that country OR
# Eligible by Residence. Have established permanent residence in that country for at least one year.

WOA says more or less the same as BOF, can't find anything on the NIOA website but I assume Irish qualification follows Jack Charlton era footy rules

BOF rules are more consistent than the SOA ones with those I have seen in other sports.

[RJ]

Those rules appear to apply for the JHIs, as we had two competitors recently selected.... one for Scotland and one for England!!

[Sheila S.]

How can a team with John Musgrave and Lorna Eades fail to come in the top 5?

They would have been if they had not been lumbered with this complete numpty who can't handle the pressure and spent (you won't believe this!) ten minutes paddling around in Loch Faskally wondering where the path round the pond had gone to. Sorry team.