im looking for peoples opinions on the number of gaffles required in a relay. for example, the long leg of the jk trophy, mens at least, only had two course variations, so you were either on the same course as someone or you wern't. of course you didnt know that at the time but it did mean if you were running with someone you would run with them for the whole course: eg me and lilywhite ran together on last leg and left behind ben rattray as he had the other gaffle, but if the courses had been mixed up chances are the three of us would have stayed closer together.
this reduction of courses seems to be something of a trend - scottish relays last year had three separate courses - common controls but no proper gaffling. the reason for this is probably that its easier on the planer but does it sacrifice the integrity of the race? it shouldnt be too hard to mix things up a bit so virtualy no one has the same course.
since i'm planning my first relays at the moment (jircs) i'l take on board any advice from anyone who has planned relays . but im not gonna say anything about the jircs, cos that wouldn't be very fair now would it?
Relay Gaffling
Moderators: [nope] cartel, team nopesport
38 posts
• Page 1 of 3 • 1, 2, 3
I'd agree that there wasn't enough gaffling at the JK. From the back of first leg it was just a train through the forest visiting the same controls.
On a 3 leg relay with 2 common controls on the way round you get 3x3x3x2x2x2x1x1x1=216 combinations, which is good for keeping people apart but very expensive for map printing (which is presumably why they didn't do that for the JK)
If you want to keep the final section of the last leg common then you get 3x3x2x2x2x1x1x1x1=72 combinations which is sufficient for any relay in Britain and should make it fair at the end too.
On a 3 leg relay with 2 common controls on the way round you get 3x3x3x2x2x2x1x1x1=216 combinations, which is good for keeping people apart but very expensive for map printing (which is presumably why they didn't do that for the JK)
If you want to keep the final section of the last leg common then you get 3x3x2x2x2x1x1x1x1=72 combinations which is sufficient for any relay in Britain and should make it fair at the end too.
-
Godders - blue
- Posts: 416
- Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:37 pm
- Location: Swanston
i agree, i think there was only one last leg at SHIs... but that was gross and we all know he is a lazy planner :p, plus spring cup, 1 gaffeled control then 8 non gaffeled, maybe if there was more gaffling winskill wouldnt have taken one for the team at the 2nd control...
i dont think it is too hard to have gaffling, i would devide a course into 4 sections or so, with a common control at the end of each section, and maybe 3 different gaffles on each of the sections. understand...???
so you could be on gaffel A on section 1, B on 2, C then C again... as long as the whole team eventaully runs A,B,C gaffels on each of the 4 sectrions then its fine, it may take a lot longer to plan, and to do the ocad etc, but it would make a much better relay. I aint good enough at maths to work out how many possible combinations of courses there are, but it must be quite a lot. enough to really split things up, ofcourse by chance 2 good people could go out at the same time on the same course, but nothing you could do about that
i dont think it is too hard to have gaffling, i would devide a course into 4 sections or so, with a common control at the end of each section, and maybe 3 different gaffles on each of the sections. understand...???
so you could be on gaffel A on section 1, B on 2, C then C again... as long as the whole team eventaully runs A,B,C gaffels on each of the 4 sectrions then its fine, it may take a lot longer to plan, and to do the ocad etc, but it would make a much better relay. I aint good enough at maths to work out how many possible combinations of courses there are, but it must be quite a lot. enough to really split things up, ofcourse by chance 2 good people could go out at the same time on the same course, but nothing you could do about that
-
mharky - team nopesport
- Posts: 4541
- Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 3:39 pm
I'll agree there wasn't enough gaffling at the JK (although I was on Men's short not the real men's course), but I wouldn't overdo it too much as you'll lose the relay feel. Particularly at JIRC where the number of teams isn't that high and (correct me if I'm wrong as it's 12 years since I last run at JIRC) there's different legs for M14/16/18? Half the fun/challenge of relays is running off each other in a pack. If you split too much it'll be just 3 individual races back to back.
-
FatBoy - addict
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 1:46 pm
JIRC has got hardly any teams, so you could reduce the amount of gaffling... i know at spring cup there was only 3 people on my gaffel, but i was constantly running with people (and i know we had lots of similar controlds, but when it came to the gaffel, there were still lots of people) and it also depends on how far apart the gaffled controls are, if its just 50m or somthing it could stay very close
-
mharky - team nopesport
- Posts: 4541
- Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 3:39 pm
I rekon marks hit it on the head here, 3 or 4 gaffles (depending on 3/4 team members) as long as a/b/c are run on each leg its got to be a lot better. However if there is a spectator control, with a short last loop, then i rekon it should be the same course into the finish.
Of course each gaffle can be 1, 2, 3 or more contols which mean the courses can be very different.
[/img]
Of course each gaffle can be 1, 2, 3 or more contols which mean the courses can be very different.
[/img]
Tetley and its Golden Farce.
-
Nails - diehard
- Posts: 685
- Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:46 pm
- Location: Walkley, South Yorkshire
Godders wrote:On a 3 leg relay with 2 common controls on the way round you get 3x3x3x2x2x2x1x1x1=216 combinations .
Or, with 20 common controls and 6 gaffled ones, you get 729 combinations and use far less flags. They did this at the scottish once, but rather spoiled the effect by overprinting the common controls and hand drawing the gaffles. With the normal option you can safely follow anyone you just punched with on 23/26 legs - with this one you can only follow safely on 6/26.
Other options exist, such as some legs skipping a control.
Rocky wrote:you were either on the same course as someone or you wern't. of course you didnt know that at the time
But if you noticed you were running course "a2", it wasn't exactly rocket science to figure out "a" meant open long course and "2" meant only one option (out of either 2 or 4 courses on a 4 lap relay).
Graeme
PS I totally refute any suggestion that my coming back ahead of the winners in every relay since 2001 has anything to do with knowing this.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
-
graeme - god
- Posts: 4726
- Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:04 pm
- Location: struggling with an pɹɐɔ ʇıɯǝ
Coming back ahaed of the winners? If you came back first and weren't the winner you either:
a) didn't finish
or
b) were the planner/controller
Or am I being silly now?
a) didn't finish
or
b) were the planner/controller
Or am I being silly now?
-
FatBoy - addict
- Posts: 1042
- Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 1:46 pm
'fraid don't agree that I'm a lazy planner. Believe it's good on an area like Barr Wood with a very small number of runners / teams that the last leg is all the same... differant story on something like the JK... I would have 2 common controls on the last leg with gaffeling for the first two thirds & then the last section common to all... I fully believe the last section should be common!
When we did the Elite Test at Devilla we had 72 course combinations for around 80 runners... and that was done with a hand overprinter on paper maps. Ecomomy of printing nowadays should be an excuse with computers.......
When we did the Elite Test at Devilla we had 72 course combinations for around 80 runners... and that was done with a hand overprinter on paper maps. Ecomomy of printing nowadays should be an excuse with computers.......
- gross2004
Graeme wrote:But if you noticed you were running course "a2", it wasn't exactly rocket science to figure out "a" meant open long course and "2" meant only one option (out of either 2 or 4 courses on a 4 lap relay).
of course at the jircs i'l be putting some hierglyphic symbols on the outside of the maps to confusepeople into thinking they're running the same course.....
Last edited by rocky on Fri Apr 16, 2004 2:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-
rocky - [nope] cartel
- Posts: 2747
- Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 1:28 pm
- Location: SW
- taylor jon delhagan
Nails wrote:hey mark, what would the url be if it was on my c: drive?
that cannae be done unfortunatly, sign up for some free webspace somewhere (angelfire, geocities, freewebs or similar), upload your picture and then link it from there.
-
brooner - [nope] cartel
- Posts: 3931
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 1:46 pm
- Location: Sydney
38 posts
• Page 1 of 3 • 1, 2, 3
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 189 guests