Worrying Noises from Norway

[rocky]

Hi all,

I'm currently in Oslo doing a bit of pre-TioMila training with my norwegian club mates (Østmarka OK). For the five years since I lived out here, trips back for training camps and to run in the major relays (Jukola, TioMila, 25-manna, Norwegian Spring, O-Festivalen...) have been some of the highlights of my orienteering season, and have been highly beneficial to my orienteering developement.

Now it seems that NOF (the Norwegian O Federation) are trying to introduce and enforce rules which will make this very difficult in the future: and if this spreads to their Nordic neighbours could have quite an impact on the O world.

The rule they are trying to introduce is this: "A runner may only change clubs once in a season". While this may sound innocuous (sp?), they consider running for a UK club, in the UK and then a norwegian club, in norway, as a change of club: ie I ran the JK, BEOC et al for INT, then came over here last weekend and ran Smaaleneløpet (cracking terrain by the way) for Østmarka. Now if I want to run for Østmarka again this year, say at 25-manna in October, I have to represent Østmarka in every (non-championship) race between now and then, or else there will be consequenses for Østmarka.

Apparently this rule has come out of a lack of action by the other Nordic federations on a rule they had discussed, trying to tighten up on who can represent whom and when.

This seems pretty ridiculous to me. British elite runners are actively encouraged to join scandinavian clubs, for very good reasons. Follow that to its logical conclusion and all runners who currently run for Norwegian clubs will then be representing Norwegian clubs, even when they come home - off the top of my head this includes Dan marston, Ewan McCarthy, Neil Northrop, Jon Duncan, Jess Halliday, Tessa Hill, Allan Bogle?

If this was to extend to all of scandinavia, pretty much everyone in the British, Swiss, Czech, Lithuanian, Polish, French, Austrian etc etc teams will be affected!

Madness!

[Jess]

Oh dear, that all sounds a bit worrying. Do you know when this rule might be coming into place? The near future?

[Ed]

that's been the internal rule in the Nordic countries for ages though, I guess it's just making it a consistent rule - why should I be able to run for a Norwegian and a British club in one year, but not a Norwegian and a Finnish one?

I agree it would knacker up the plans of plenty of non-Scandi runners though: but an unforeseen consequence could be that more foreign clubs would enter Scandi relays as the elite wouldn't then all be running for Scandi club. And that wouldn't necessarily be such a bad thing.

[harry]

I agree with Ed. It would certainly change things and maybe not for the better but on the other hand being part of one club and being committed to their goals/race/training camps/programme as well as your national team is plenty.

I have found that being in several clubs can mean that you never feel completely part of something and just being part of one club feels much better.

eg. In running I used to run for one club on the hills and another on XC/road. Now I train and compete for just one club. Training with the same people week in week/ day in day out and competing together is BRILLIANT.

If this rule comes into place and is strictly enforced it will mean people need to choose carefully where they want to live and train what club they want to run for and then commit to that club's plans. It isn't the end of the world. There is nothing stopping British clubs from prioritising Scandinavian relays, and if it is worthwhile for their members they should even put money towards it or try to get sponsorship.

To my knowledge quite a few Brit's who run for Scandinavian clubs don't take full advantage of it anyway. They often just turn up and run a couple of relays and don't get fully involved with the club. Maybe you can get some money towards your flight but preparing for and focussing on a big relay with your regular training group could be a more valuable and enjoyable experience. Or you could decide not to bother taking UK relays seriously (or even running the at all) and choose to run for a Scandinavian club and get fully involved with them or even go and live there. Make the circumstances work for you.

[JEP]

Beware the Scandis. Always looking after themselves. Remember when they tried to keep Brits (Stan in particular) out of elite races (Sweden I think). New World Cup format is aimed at enhancing the Scandi events as far as I can see.

This new potential club rule seems to be inward looking and protective as usual. Do they really want a world sport? Encouraging other nations by being open and welcoming should be the way forward. That way the sport will grow and standards elsewhere will rise. I suspect that this is not what the Norwegian's want. Look after ourselves to hell with the rest of the world.

Perhaps that is a bit too cynical but maybe not!

[graeme]

Funny how when the foreigners want only their own people on their O-teams they're out to screw us.

And when they want only our nationals on our soccer teams they're also out to screw us.

This weekend is tiomila - a wonderful race which few brits have had the chance to run, not least because UK club members who could motivate their clubs and tackle the big legs slide off to run for Scand-O reserves. Tio 06/07 were even easier to get to than the Harvester.

The big Scandi relays have been wonderfully welcoming to JOK when we've gone over. They want the sport to grow internationally. Maybe they think encouraging club spirit in other countries rather than poaching our elites will help. Maybe they're right.

[Snail]

tiomila - a wonderful race which few brits have had the chance to run, not least because UK club members who could motivate their clubs and tackle the big legs slide off to run for Scand-O reserves.

Not that much different then to when UK club members who could motivate their open clubs and tackle the big legs slide off to run for closed clubs like JOK!

[Peter B]

Beware the Scandis. Always looking after themselves. Remember when they tried to keep Brits (Stan in particular) out of elite races (Sweden I think). New World Cup format is aimed at enhancing the Scandi events as far as I can see.

This new potential club rule seems to be inward looking and protective as usual. Do they really want a world sport? Encouraging other nations by being open and welcoming should be the way forward. That way the sport will grow and standards elsewhere will rise. I suspect that this is not what the Norwegian's want. Look after ourselves to hell with the rest of the world.

Perhaps that is a bit too cynical but maybe not!

Agreed - it may have a beneficial result on a national basis (i.e. changing club within Norway) but just given the impact that running with a Scandi club has had even on the British Elite - other countries assumingly would have elite runners in the same situation as ours - I really don't think it would be a forward step to introduce this on an international level.

Although, two questions:

- Having said that then, club changes in Sweden or Finland could be classed as international. So, should it apply to Norwegian runners in Swedish or Finnish clubs as well as in thier own country?

- Should this really apply as much to orienteers residing in Norway but where 'home' is some other country e.g. Britain, and would it be fair on the Norweigians?

[Becks]

This weekend is tiomila - a wonderful race which few brits have had the chance to run, not least because UK club members who could motivate their clubs and tackle the big legs slide off to run for Scand-O reserves. Tio 06/07 were even easier to get to than the Harvester.

T

If AIRE, JOK or EUOC will pay for me to get there from Edinburgh then I'd happily run for them. Unsurprisingly though their funding priorities are elsewhere, so if I want the experience of running in these relays, which I most definitely do, and most definitely being the skint student I am, running for my Scandi club who pay my way is the only way to go.

[awk]

Like any other change, we simply don't know what the real effect will be (not even the Norwegians!). My worry is that, if the onus goes back on the British clubs, could it then result in elite orienteers bunching more under flags of convenience, effecting open clubs even more when it comes to domestic relays? It might, it might not.

Of course it could have the positive effect of encouraging British clubs to enter more Scandinavian relays, as has been picked up already. The difficuly there, of course, is the cost issue, as Becky highlights. Even so, as another member of Aire, I'd love to see us getting teams over, particularly as we've got a number of younger members who'd benefit massively. Maybe it's something that we ought to be looking at more closely, and which a bit of demand from club members would benefit from (after all, one trip can't be much further or more costly for us than a Harvester on Penhale Sands).

One other consideration, perhaps a non-starter, but for the junior tio-mila in August we've been able to enter competitive teams from regional/national squads in the past, and I know they allow Swedish clubs to combine to form teams. Is there any ruling that allows something like this or to run for a larger geographically closed club? A Yorkshire team, a South Eastern team, or whatever? Probably gets caught up in somebody's eligibility rules, but just a thought.

[Ed]

there's been "England select" and squad teams in 10-Mila and Jukola in the past, so I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed now (although if they actually won anything that might change!). I assume even the Norwegians would be able to accept that running for a regional/national team wasn't a change of club...

[graeme]

Not that much different then to when UK club members who could motivate their open clubs and tackle the big legs slide off to run for closed clubs like JOK!

You mean like the JOK team that never was at the 2007 Harvester...

John Emeleus,Steve Wilson (CLYDE), Jon Cross, Nick Barrable (FVO) ,Graeme Ackland(INT) ,Duncan Archer(CLOK) ,Ed Catmur (SLOW)

Plenty of open club motivation and long-leg running there

[Olsoran]

Murray is correct in what he says and the rule is in place now - and I'm told can be found on the "representation" pages of the NOF site - haven't had time to pursue and translate whats there yet though.

The only exception to the "one annual change" rule for foreign runners residing in Norway is that they can travel back to their home nation and compete in the National Championships for their home nation club. I spoke with the NOF Secretary General just now and he too confirmed it. He said its our choice whether we run for our GB club in Norway or our Norwegian club in Britain the rest of the time. I neglected to ask what the repercussions for infringement are likely to be.

At a regional junior coaching weekend a week or so ago here in Oslo apparently one of the coaching staff said his frustration wasn't so much with the rule, as that no-one appeared to know about it.

[PeteL]

Just a thought about the motivation for the rule change - rather than it being dark, nationalistic chicanery might it just be that the Norweigian clubs resent infrequent (foreign) runners using the club to subsidise their involvement in big events? Of course, they might think that paying a really good foreign orienteer to be a 'ringer' is a good thing, providing they win but maybe there's some freeloading going on?

Off thread musing - all this talk about flying to Finland for the weekend made me think about the sport's environmental responsibilities (carbon footprint etc.) so I thought I'd check BOF Environmental Policy: seems like you're OK, the policy states that:

'We will all make our own decisions regarding our environmental responsibility, but we must do so in the knowledge that unnecessary car journeys are environmentally damaging.

Therefore, best practice is to:

1. Use public transport where possible.
2. etc'

Seems like flying is better than driving then (providing it's not your own plane that is...)

[Roger]

Not that much different then to when UK club members who could motivate their open clubs and tackle the big legs slide off to run for closed clubs like JOK!

Graeme didn't mention it, but there was considerable resistance in the sport's hierarchy when JOK wanted to start up, on precisely the grounds that the club would take people away from their open clubs. Recognising this issue, JOK has a strict rule that if anybody's 'home' club has a team running in a relay, he/she has to offer to run for that team in preference to JOK. Hence -- with all due respect to the people involved -- the apparently chronically under-strength JOK teams in JK and British relays, and the JOK Harvester teams that tend to fluctuate between mostly-southerners and mostly-northerners depending on the location of the event and therefore which open clubs are present.

Hence also the JOK Chasing Sprint, set up to show that university old boys' clubs could benefit the sport and not just take from it.

(Sorry for the rant when your post did include a smiley, but it was a sore point at the time and one that we'd hoped we'd addressed.)