The JK
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The JK
Can I just say - quality weekend all round for the JK organising crew! Top areas, mostly well planned courses, a good effort at razamatazz and the fantastic weather - one of the best in recent memory I reckon. What do the rest of you think?
Will? We've got proper fire now!
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Becks - god
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aye, the orienteering was top notch, as was the weather, not so sure about the rest of it,
running out of maps and v disorganised start on day 1 (not great)
having to put the starts back day 2
and the lack of time over the commentry was a bit poor too, andy clearly can't do mental arithmatic!!
over all a grand weekend organisational wise but a few cracks let it down a bit.
but have to say that the relays were awesome. best realy i've known i think in blighty, big bunch of top teams all with a shout.
next year has some living up to do!!
ooh, just saw i ran the fastest time on my leg for the relay ( we ignore the 1min 50 from the last control to the finish, i was on the floor being tired!!!)
and i was also in the lead on saturday at #5, if only that had been the finish!!
running out of maps and v disorganised start on day 1 (not great)
having to put the starts back day 2
and the lack of time over the commentry was a bit poor too, andy clearly can't do mental arithmatic!!
over all a grand weekend organisational wise but a few cracks let it down a bit.
but have to say that the relays were awesome. best realy i've known i think in blighty, big bunch of top teams all with a shout.
next year has some living up to do!!
ooh, just saw i ran the fastest time on my leg for the relay ( we ignore the 1min 50 from the last control to the finish, i was on the floor being tired!!!)
and i was also in the lead on saturday at #5, if only that had been the finish!!
'Grab it by the balls'
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the duncan - diehard
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its never stopped them before, and there is not alot you can usually do anyway, if you arn't running your hardest, why are you running!?!
'Grab it by the balls'
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the duncan - diehard
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There are few things more agreeable than a sunny easter in the Lake District.
Why does that not surprise me. I couldn't believe you caught me two minute on 3-4 after I'd been clean so far, but when you were out of sight
by 5, I had to believe it.
I enjoyed the relay too: glad I'm not a selector . Only downside as a spectator was the feeling of inevitability about SYO's victory in mens and womens.
That said, I didn't care much for the individual. Seemed to be a lot of plodding along the straight line through thick stuff and brashings looking for bits where there was enough light to read the map. At the speed which I can go (in that terrain) there wasn't much to think about except "how do I get over there". Maybe there was some route choice I missed? We have it drummed into us the the Lake District is the best of British orienteering, and in the runnable bits it was, but overall (weather apart) I preferred my course at Simonside.
Nobody dares criticise this sort of terrain for fear of being labelled incompetant: but fully a quarter of the M21E field not bothering to finish day 2. Believe what they do, not what they say?
Graeme
PS. What was going on at #11 on day 1 - different description on the map from the loose ones in the start lane and with the flag knocked down, certainly not visible from where the loose descriptions said it was.
the duncan wrote:i was also in the lead on saturday at #5, if only that had been the finish!!
Why does that not surprise me. I couldn't believe you caught me two minute on 3-4 after I'd been clean so far, but when you were out of sight
by 5, I had to believe it.
I enjoyed the relay too: glad I'm not a selector . Only downside as a spectator was the feeling of inevitability about SYO's victory in mens and womens.
That said, I didn't care much for the individual. Seemed to be a lot of plodding along the straight line through thick stuff and brashings looking for bits where there was enough light to read the map. At the speed which I can go (in that terrain) there wasn't much to think about except "how do I get over there". Maybe there was some route choice I missed? We have it drummed into us the the Lake District is the best of British orienteering, and in the runnable bits it was, but overall (weather apart) I preferred my course at Simonside.
Nobody dares criticise this sort of terrain for fear of being labelled incompetant: but fully a quarter of the M21E field not bothering to finish day 2. Believe what they do, not what they say?
Graeme
PS. What was going on at #11 on day 1 - different description on the map from the loose ones in the start lane and with the flag knocked down, certainly not visible from where the loose descriptions said it was.
Last edited by graeme on Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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graeme - god
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yep, i blame that for me loosing 2 mins, not the fact that i'm a blithering idiot, a few people said that the bit around 11 felt odd, all the rest of the sites felt right and fitted perfectly. but 11 just wasn't quite right, and the description did confuse me for a second.
'Grab it by the balls'
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the duncan - diehard
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I spoke to various people about some of the problems over the weekend - I'm not going to name any names because that would be unfair to a lot of people who worked v.hard and generally did a pretty good job, but the info I got;
lack of maps on day 1 - there should have been about 20 over the required number, and was that amount before transporting to the start. thought is that maybe the bag with the maps in got tipped during transport, some fell out maybe into other bags and weren't spotted.
mismatching control descriptions - during e-mailing the files with the final descriptions to the printers the e-mail failed to transmit correctly and so could not be read. Since the sender of that e-mail was then away for a couple of weeks, a previous version ended up getting used.
As for the length of middle distance race, I looked at the distance and guessed that it would be won in 35 minutes. Having heard some finishers times I revised that to 37 minutes - I guess therefore that the planners were thinking the same kind of speeds as I was, but was maybe a little more physical than expected. Since WOC middle distance final is meant to be 35 minutes I see nothing wrong with JK short race being 35-40 minutes winning time (i.e if it was a world cup race would probably be won in 35-37 minutes), and it was only a fraction outside that.
I thought some of the planning on the classic could have been a little more inspiring - the only real long leg had minimal route choice and there seemed to be a few points where some more variety of leg length might have been better. I'd also rather not have used the greeny bit of High Dam and had a bit more of a loop in the northern end of Graythwaite. Similarly the middle race I was expecting a loop on the 'Devil's Gallop' slope (NE edge of the map) and to not go S. of the green... but overall given the number of courses to be planned for a JK then I think the planning was generally good.
lack of maps on day 1 - there should have been about 20 over the required number, and was that amount before transporting to the start. thought is that maybe the bag with the maps in got tipped during transport, some fell out maybe into other bags and weren't spotted.
mismatching control descriptions - during e-mailing the files with the final descriptions to the printers the e-mail failed to transmit correctly and so could not be read. Since the sender of that e-mail was then away for a couple of weeks, a previous version ended up getting used.
As for the length of middle distance race, I looked at the distance and guessed that it would be won in 35 minutes. Having heard some finishers times I revised that to 37 minutes - I guess therefore that the planners were thinking the same kind of speeds as I was, but was maybe a little more physical than expected. Since WOC middle distance final is meant to be 35 minutes I see nothing wrong with JK short race being 35-40 minutes winning time (i.e if it was a world cup race would probably be won in 35-37 minutes), and it was only a fraction outside that.
I thought some of the planning on the classic could have been a little more inspiring - the only real long leg had minimal route choice and there seemed to be a few points where some more variety of leg length might have been better. I'd also rather not have used the greeny bit of High Dam and had a bit more of a loop in the northern end of Graythwaite. Similarly the middle race I was expecting a loop on the 'Devil's Gallop' slope (NE edge of the map) and to not go S. of the green... but overall given the number of courses to be planned for a JK then I think the planning was generally good.
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Ed - diehard
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Graeme wrote:Only downside as a spectator was the feeling of inevitability about SYO's victory in mens and womens.
womens yes, mens no:there were a lot of competitive teams: OD and Tyrving pushed SYO to the end and i daresay had Oleg not got injured EUOC would have pushed them even harder.
and Ed, a 35-40 minute race may be fine for seniors based on you're argument, but what about the juniors who share the class? JWOC has been won in under 25 for the last two years yet GG was out for 45 on saturday?
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rocky - [nope] cartel
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womens relay
I wouldn't say the women's was a forgone conlcusion either. I know SYO were the red hot favourites but we definitely felt we had a chance and if we had all run really well it would have been pretty close.
But as Heather said on the commentary "hey, that's orienteering!"
we have a secret weapon for the british relays anyway..
But as Heather said on the commentary "hey, that's orienteering!"
we have a secret weapon for the british relays anyway..
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harry - addict
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yeah it was probably the second best Jk I've been to. Peenhale was better because everyone was staying on site for a week, so you could see you're freinds all of the time. Plus the areas were pretty technically demanding.
This years was good because
- The assembly areas had good views of the run in and were close to the carparks
- The terrain on day 1 was very different to day 2 or the relays.
- A large entry (70 on our course instead of the usual 40) meant for furious racing, particularly against scandinavians (although only 1 beat me)
however
- the event centre didn't seem like much of a 'centre'
- some of the relay terrain was awful and scratty, much like some of the welsh and yorkshire forests (generally)
- the car parks were badlyb organised with only 1 bridge being used to get people out of the car parks on day 1 and the relays, meaning it took us nearly half an hour on each occasion to leave the field. This was not helped by people pushing in on day 1 or two officials who didn't know the difference between a short row or a long row at the relay.
- also, the commentary was quite eliteist, because after the elites and winners had finished the relay the commentary stopped not encouraging the other runners streaming in. We harlequins stayed until our last competitor finished, cheering with matt evans's air horn.
But i still agree, that Jk 2004 was one of the best. Sadly 2005 will be crap, as the areas are pretty crap, they are miles apart, and the logo, although containing a very attractive young lady (Carol) also contains the ugliest creature alive.
This years was good because
- The assembly areas had good views of the run in and were close to the carparks
- The terrain on day 1 was very different to day 2 or the relays.
- A large entry (70 on our course instead of the usual 40) meant for furious racing, particularly against scandinavians (although only 1 beat me)
however
- the event centre didn't seem like much of a 'centre'
- some of the relay terrain was awful and scratty, much like some of the welsh and yorkshire forests (generally)
- the car parks were badlyb organised with only 1 bridge being used to get people out of the car parks on day 1 and the relays, meaning it took us nearly half an hour on each occasion to leave the field. This was not helped by people pushing in on day 1 or two officials who didn't know the difference between a short row or a long row at the relay.
- also, the commentary was quite eliteist, because after the elites and winners had finished the relay the commentary stopped not encouraging the other runners streaming in. We harlequins stayed until our last competitor finished, cheering with matt evans's air horn.
But i still agree, that Jk 2004 was one of the best. Sadly 2005 will be crap, as the areas are pretty crap, they are miles apart, and the logo, although containing a very attractive young lady (Carol) also contains the ugliest creature alive.
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rob f - yellow
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Rocky wrote:and Ed, a 35-40 minute race may be fine for seniors based on you're argument, but what about the juniors who share the class? JWOC has been won in under 25 for the last two years yet GG was out for 45 on saturday?
ok - fair point. but that's always going to be a problem of the seniors and juniors sharing the course, if it's the right length for seniors it's probably slightly overlong for most of the juniors, but they'd still probably rather run the same course. I guess it just needs a compromise somewhere and agree the current guidelines seem a little dodgy...
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Ed - diehard
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trebor,
the same map was used for day 1 and 2, and almost the same for the relays, how can you say that the terrain was very different?!? are you mad?
and what about the mighty Gramar in the relay boys! if i had gone clean through the last bit, ewan would have been out only seconds down on Jamie!
the same map was used for day 1 and 2, and almost the same for the relays, how can you say that the terrain was very different?!? are you mad?
and what about the mighty Gramar in the relay boys! if i had gone clean through the last bit, ewan would have been out only seconds down on Jamie!
'Grab it by the balls'
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the duncan - diehard
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Quality w/e. The relays have got to rank as one of the best ever...or that i can remember anyway.
Trebor> Penhale was good as a social location, but once you've run there once, it becomes pretty easy, and not tecnically demanding as you put it...graythwaite is surely more tecnical. Also the 'yorkshire' forest as you put it was tough and scratchy but contrasted really well to the more visable and open terrain.
My only rant from the w/e has got to be carparks. What is it with orienteering and carparks? Ok you need some structure or it becomes a free for all, but getting out of the relay carpark was crap. There were 6-8 people waving there arms, some woman stood in the middle of the driest bit, so you couldn't drive over it...and why only take out one car at a time, surely if the road is clear, you can have a contiuous flow of people leaving....you only need one person waving to tell you if the road is clear! not 3 or 4! ...orienteers what can i say!! ...but then it comes back to people that can't drive...first gear...high revs...thats the way forward...
Trebor> Penhale was good as a social location, but once you've run there once, it becomes pretty easy, and not tecnically demanding as you put it...graythwaite is surely more tecnical. Also the 'yorkshire' forest as you put it was tough and scratchy but contrasted really well to the more visable and open terrain.
My only rant from the w/e has got to be carparks. What is it with orienteering and carparks? Ok you need some structure or it becomes a free for all, but getting out of the relay carpark was crap. There were 6-8 people waving there arms, some woman stood in the middle of the driest bit, so you couldn't drive over it...and why only take out one car at a time, surely if the road is clear, you can have a contiuous flow of people leaving....you only need one person waving to tell you if the road is clear! not 3 or 4! ...orienteers what can i say!! ...but then it comes back to people that can't drive...first gear...high revs...thats the way forward...
Tetley and its Golden Farce.
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Nails - diehard
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Trebor isn't mad Bruce, just seen the forest from a different perspective. For those of us on shorter courses, Day 1 and Day 2 were very different.
I thought the weekend great, accepting the hiccups raised above. It raised a couple of other question marks for me.
The M120 relay long leg did hit the 40 minutes time, but virtually all our 'long' leg runners felt it was way too long, the second time through the green really adding to that length. Rather than a criticism of the planners (who after all achieved the length and quality required) this, I think, highlights a possible increasing difference between the elit(ish) leaders in the older classes and the rest who are more recreationally minded, particularly on the last day of a hard weekend. The problem is that there is no shorter option. Perhaps if the short open was genuinely short?
I gather from our women, there was a similar feeling about the W120, and certainly the times indicated that this was exacerbated by the courses being 10% overdistance, at least according to the times.
I think there also remains a need to look at the awards and certificates presented at our most prestigious events. Last year's BOC went some way towards setting a higher standard, and this event made a significant step forward in recognising more than just the top 3 in junior classes so congratulations to the organisers for that, but we still need to look at the quality. Getting good prizes for the leading relay teams was great, so it seems churlish to mention this, but it's something I feel is really important in development terms: cheap souvenir mugs, and certificates made from cheap paper, amateurish layout, and scrawled lettering in biro doesn't enhance either the event or the sense of achievement.
But these were small points - thanks to the organisers for a phenomenal effort. It's easy to pick holes (as I've just done) but at the end of the day, we all had a great weekend's orienteering, organised entirely by fellow orienteers, all in their spare time. Wow!
I thought the weekend great, accepting the hiccups raised above. It raised a couple of other question marks for me.
The M120 relay long leg did hit the 40 minutes time, but virtually all our 'long' leg runners felt it was way too long, the second time through the green really adding to that length. Rather than a criticism of the planners (who after all achieved the length and quality required) this, I think, highlights a possible increasing difference between the elit(ish) leaders in the older classes and the rest who are more recreationally minded, particularly on the last day of a hard weekend. The problem is that there is no shorter option. Perhaps if the short open was genuinely short?
I gather from our women, there was a similar feeling about the W120, and certainly the times indicated that this was exacerbated by the courses being 10% overdistance, at least according to the times.
I think there also remains a need to look at the awards and certificates presented at our most prestigious events. Last year's BOC went some way towards setting a higher standard, and this event made a significant step forward in recognising more than just the top 3 in junior classes so congratulations to the organisers for that, but we still need to look at the quality. Getting good prizes for the leading relay teams was great, so it seems churlish to mention this, but it's something I feel is really important in development terms: cheap souvenir mugs, and certificates made from cheap paper, amateurish layout, and scrawled lettering in biro doesn't enhance either the event or the sense of achievement.
But these were small points - thanks to the organisers for a phenomenal effort. It's easy to pick holes (as I've just done) but at the end of the day, we all had a great weekend's orienteering, organised entirely by fellow orienteers, all in their spare time. Wow!
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awk - god
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