Force Ten Phoenix Feedback

[Freefall]

Ian - saw your comments under "waterproof maps". It was certainly wet yesterday!! I only played a bit part in the event this year (I was the one on the finish line when John wasn't there) but organised the 2005 event. No doubt I will be asked to do something for 2007.

Event feedback would be helpful. I am aware there were a few glitches but overall it went well. £1000 of prizes were available thanks to special rates from our sponsors (AMG Group who do Vango and Force Ten).

Next year because NATO is organising the October Odyssey we might have to find the "usual" August date. This year it was moved to September because of shooting restrictions imposed on us. What is the preferred time - entries were certainly pretty good this time though we would always like more!

Course lengths and classes - the format A,B,C and D and pairs seems popular. Any thoughts?

Comment was made on the number of controls (few) with an emphasis on navigation and route choice (Adrian Barnes planned). A mini orienteering section was introduced at the end of Day 2, mainly to avoid a boring run down the road to the campsite. Was this idea popular (general feedback seemed positive).

Results still to be finalised I think but for the record Duncan Archer won the A in impressive times on both days. He should be out on the OMM.

Any other thoughts?

[graeme]

Very enjoyable. There was no need for more controls. B was quite long enough for me.

Final orienteering section might have been confusing for non-orienteers (no legends on either map!). It was good for this particular event because it meant that we could finish at the campsite without going through inadequately mapped fields (see below), but I dont think you need it in general. Going through, thick rough terrain would be very unwelcome after two long hard days, so the orange standard course was ideal.

I'd prefer a date when it isn't raining

It might be worth remembering that Harveys dont map boundaries in the yellow farmland.
I gather a few people inadvertantly strayed into places where the owners weren't pleased to see them. Also, it might be beneficial to all if you sent your O-map to Harvey's so they could update theirs with the new fences on the fell - maybe they'll give you discounted printing next year.

Graeme

[Jayne]

My first event of this type and I have to say I really enjoyed. Nice mix of people and nice and long key (if I can email 3 days before and get an entry I'll always be happy).

It might be a good idea to have an example map somewhere. I did, as expected, find it hard to get into but even after the first day there were some odd things e.g. a track not marked but a wall marked and not there on the ground as such I was never quite sure what I'd find and what not.

I messed up the start at day 2, not realising that it was actually 400m along the road. It seems obvious looking at the map now, but at the time it didn't. Did many people do this - there seemed to be a lot of people about.

All in all, a great event that I'll be going to again. Thanks a lot.

[jkjuggler]

Overall, I thought it was a good event, and a very enjoyable weekend. Just a few points:

The final instructions said to avoid out of bounds areas, but there was no indication of them on the map. Was the 'dark yellow' intended as out of bounds? I assumed it was, and did a considerable detour at the end of day one on the A course, but I know plenty of people who ran straight across the fields (and I understand a control was moved on day 2 as a result).

Using the Harvey's walkers map was a real problem. As someone else said there were loads of unmapped tracks, and plenty of unmapped fences, or mapped ones that didn't exist. As a result the map was seriously short of reliable attack points for finding controls. On the A course, the first control on day 2 was on a mapped ruined sheep fold on a hillside with at least half a dozen other unmapped circular piles of stones (collapsed neolithic tombs?). In good weather it might have been OK, but in the cloud it was a lottery whether you got the right pile of stones (I passed very close to it at least once without finding it and eventually took a bearing to it from the only good attack point I could find - a wall junction that was at least 500m away). Equally, there were lots of controls on both days in reentrants that were almost invisible on the map. I saw lots of people searching for control 2 on A on day 1, and controls 2-4 on A on day 2 were equally problematic. It's fine to say there's a reentrant on the map, but on the ground it's very difficult to judge which reentrants are big enough to be mapped and which are not, so you end up searching all the reentrants in the area.

The numerous unmapped tracks also led to some rather unfair situations. The optimal route to control 7 on A day 1 was (I think) down to the stream, along the unmapped track along the stream, and then up the unmapped track into the reentrant with the control. This was clearly better than traversing around the very steep and rocky hillside, which I watched a number of people trying to do. Had they known there was a path run almost all the way, I'm sure they wouldn't have attempted it.

On the other hand, the route choice legs were excellent. Very challenging to get right (and I'm sure I didn't on day 2), some of the terrain was lovely and runnable, and despite the small numbers of controls, there was plenty of orienteering challenge. The whole event was very well organised, the event centre was nice, and the waterproof maps really were.

Oh, and best wishes to the planner for a quick recovery.

[graeme]

Using the Harvey's walkers map was a real problem.

But what are you going to use? - the OS 25k map is even worse, and the event doesn't really have the resource to map the whole area. The planners have a pretty good idea of which tracks actually exist, Harveys are keen to keep their maps up to date, so maybe an update at the time of printing could be arranged.

[Freefall]

I will raise the subject with Harveys - I am a fan of their mapping in some areas but I think the Cheviots need a significant resurvey. Certainly the feedback on the waterproof maps is very positive.

I think we probably all agree on the need for legends or at least prior warning. I think non-orienteers found it hard to accept white meant forest when the switch came from 1:40000 to 1:10000 (or was it 1:15000)?

[IanD]

Event feedback would be helpful.

Thoughts from a Phoenix first-timer (although I have done a couple of Capricorns). I enjoyed the event. Particularly the emphasis on route choice. I found the B course a real physical challenge, running out of steam half-way through Day Two, but then I usually only run for 60-70 minutes.

The map wasn't up to the sort of standard that would be expected of a specially-surveyed map for an orienteering event. No surprise there, and I wouldn't want to pay the sort of entry fee that would support the production of such a map. We were adequately warned in the final details. The printing was excellent; whatever detail was on the map remained perfectly visible.

The switch to a proper orienteering map for the last few controls was a novel idea. The orienteering was nothing special (and I'd have been too tired to appreciate if it had been) but it did allow us to finish at the assembly area.

I thought the weather was perfect, one day in sunshine, the other in fog. A good balance.

A/B/C/D courses are fine, but if there had been a score course, I'd probably have entered that.

There are always a few things that can be improved at any event. Please don't take this list as meaning that it wasn't a good event, I thought it was.

- I would have liked a legend for the Harveys map. I've not used one before, and I'm still not sure what the line of blue dots means. I'm not saying that the legend should have been on the map, but maybe "Harveys virgins" could have been pointed at a web site or given a legend on a separate piece of paper.

- Conversely, a legend for the orienteering map would have been a waste of paper for me, but I'm sure some would have appreciated it.

- Picking up one of the earlier comments, the details said out-of-bounds would be marked on the map. I haven't spotted anything that I recognise as out-of-bounds on the Harvey's map. I hope I didn't unwittingly transgress. See earlier comment about legend!

- there was an element of bingo about some of the route choices. One way would find deep heather, another an unmapped track. I think this is an inevitable feature of long-distance orienteering events using non-specialist maps. All you can do is pick control sites for which the immediate vicinity is clearly and accurately mapped. And bear in mind that only large contour features are clear at 1:40,000. I thought you did this very well, except for ...

- control 115 (number 4 on Day Two B). This was a small re-entrant, almost invisible on the map, on a precipitous hillside. Although the re-entrant itself was just about OK, there was a lot of bracken and several unmapped fences in the area. It was inevitable that some people would stray into the adjacent re-entrant, which I thought steep and craggy enough to be dangerous.

- I wasn't too keen on the last leg on Day One, though farm fields, albeit with grass rather than a more delicate crop, searching for gates in or climbing unmapped fences. I would have prefered to finish on the moor (or change to a detailed map as on Day Two).

- Day One's course ended with "follow tapes to finish" but there were no tapes.

- On Day Two, only some people were informed that the start kite was 400m up the track. (I was one of the lucky ones). Whatever information is given out at the start should be the same for everyone.

Final thought, did anyone spot the best route to the first control on Day One for the B course - back through the pre-start and follow the public footpath? I didn't!

[jkjuggler]

The map wasn't up to the sort of standard that would be expected of a specially-surveyed map for an orienteering event. No surprise there, and I wouldn't want to pay the sort of entry fee that would support the production of such a map. We were adequately warned in the final details. The printing was excellent; whatever detail was on the map remained perfectly visible.

...

- there was an element of bingo about some of the route choices. One way would find deep heather, another an unmapped track. I think this is an inevitable feature of long-distance orienteering events using non-specialist maps. All you can do is pick control sites for which the immediate vicinity is clearly and accurately mapped. And bear in mind that only large contour features are clear at 1:40,000. I thought you did this very well, except for ...

I absolutely agree. I don't expect a specialist map for a large area like this. However, the key is to choose control sites that are accurately identifiable from the map that is available. This was my complaint above about controls 1-4 on course A day 2. The map was insufficiently detailed to let me distinguish the control site from other similar (unmapped) features in the area. In my opinion they were therefore not good choices for control locations.

- control 115 (number 4 on Day Two B). This was a small re-entrant, almost invisible on the map, on a precipitous hillside. Although the re-entrant itself was just about OK, there was a lot of bracken and several unmapped fences in the area. It was inevitable that some people would stray into the adjacent re-entrant, which I thought steep and craggy enough to be dangerous.

- I wasn't too keen on the last leg on Day One, though farm fields, albeit with grass rather than a more delicate crop, searching for gates in or climbing unmapped fences. I would have prefered to finish on the moor (or change to a detailed map as on Day Two).

Control 115 was also number 4 on the A course. My comments above apply to it too. When I got there, there was a large elephant trail up the unmapped re-entrant above the one with the control in it, so clearly several people had explored that one too.

The farm fields at the end of day 1 were the ones I assumed were out of bounds and diverted around. I'm glad to hear they weren't completely straightforward for those who chose to cross them

[Duncan]

A few thoughts:

-- Overall a very enjoyable weekend and pair of races. I liked the long legs giving good route choices. The weather on day 2 made the navigation a bit more exciting, as opposed to spotting the hill you wanted from 3km away and running to it.

-- Not telling everyone clearly that the start kite was 500m up the road on day 2 was very bad. Maybe in better weather you'd expect most people to realise they weren't at the start triangle on picking up their maps, but in the mist....

-- The waterproof maps got a good hammering on day 2, and stood up fine. Mine is still perfectly legible after the event.

I've read various comments about people's disappointment with the inaccuracy of the map.

-- Regarding new fences, it might sound harsh but I'd say (literally) "get over it". It would have been good to have a comment in the details saying some new fences had been put up that weren't mapped, but otherwise it is going to happen, and you can't expect a map covering this size area and at this scale to be perfect. In all cases where I came across an unmapped fence I felt it was clear from the other features on the map (which you should be using!) and other skills like pacing / compass (ditto) that the fence itself wasn't mapped.

-- I found all the controls 'fair' and the mapping adequate in the circle. Admittedly some required good map reading, but I'd be disappointed if that wasn't the case. Particularly 118 and 114 on day 1, and 104 and 115 on day 2, where streams didn't run up the the obvious (on the map and / or ground) re-entrant - it is all there on the map if you look closely.

-- Going off the (mapped) paths will always be a lottery whether you find a good line through the heather, but over the distance of the course things balance out so it isn't a big deal. I agree with someone's comment about pointing those unfamiliar with the mapping at a key so you know what red dots and blue dots mean (public right of way which may or may not be obvious on the ground, and permissive path which probably is obvious on the ground, respectively). Other things you just learn with experience (e.g. fences usually have a decent path next to them!).

-- At the end of the day, in my opinion, it was a great long distance event on a map suitable for the course.

[Freefall]

Good to hear comments so far - I have sent an email off to my contact at Harveys and will be interested in their future mapping plans.

Unfortunately I was unable to run so cannot possibly comment on control sites/fences etc. The top few competitors on each day were obviously not too affected and I am pretty sure worthy winners emerged.

[johnloguk]

Sadly I've never managed to do a Phoenix, always seems to clash with something, although I've done lots of Capricorns and KIMMS. The one comment I would endorse though is about having a score course, or two. I was just starting to get a bit bored with KIMMS because of the crocodiles of people, particularly on the second day and if visibility was good. Then they introduced score classes and the crocodiles all but disappeared, just a thought.

[graeme]

There are no crocodiles at the Phoenix. Last 2km apart, I saw one person on my course on day 1 (for about 10 mins), and the only people I saw on day 2 were rootling around in the mist for #121 (sheepfold, no.2 on B &C). That control turned out to be a bit of a lottery: I think about 7 people punched from the same sweep-search as me. But it would have been fine out of the mist.

If you want to run and navigate alone for several hours, but still have a decent level of competition, this is the best event in Britain.

Please dont introduce more courses: the route choice is excellent, something which cannot be achieved on a score, and as Duncan said with unmapped runnability you need everyone going through more-or-less the same areas to be fair.

[alcumbria]

Personally

I thought it was a good event and the two opposites of weather made it more enjoyable and challenging
The planning was good and on most legs on the B course there was a choice of routes (unfortunately for me I seemed to pick the heather route every time, hindsight is a wonderful thing)
The route gadget as used at Loch Vaa etc would be ideal on this sort of event to see all the different routes. but I presume this can only be used on Ocad maps

My only comment regarding the planning is if the fields at the end were out of bounds then control 107 could have been in a more stategic place to avoid the fields.

I think that all the controls on the B course had definite attack points and regarding the checkpoint 2 (control number 121)on day 2 it was almost due west from the obvious wall corner and if people went into the wrong reentrant on checkpoint 4 (control number 115) they would not have lost much time

the orienteering at the end was much more enjoyable than walking down the road and took my mind off my sore feet.

The bit I cant understand is why there are not more entries considering the OMM gets oversubscribed every year.The Phoenix would make an excellent introduction to mountain marathons for beginners without having to purchase all the expensive lightweight equipment for an overnight camp.

One last thing did anyone else follow the landrover track all the way up from Broadstruther to the summit of Broadhope hill on day two of the B course
I realised I was going too far west in the mist but it was a good track

[Freefall]

See Planners Comments on the Phoenix website - he doesn't want to get involved in a Nopesport debate. Adrian and Patrick did a great job under the circuymstances (Adrian's dicky heart). I couldn't help much thanks to my (recovering) achilles rupture.


We would like more entries but not quite as many as the OMM thank you!

[seabird]

-- Not telling everyone clearly that the start kite was 500m up the road on day 2 was very bad. Maybe in better weather you'd expect most people to realise they weren't at the start triangle on picking up their maps, but in the mist....

I was one of the one's caught out by this. Certainly made the navigation all the more challenging in the mist! If I had been any way competitive, I might not have been quite so sanguine about this.

The one start official seemed very overloaded with tasks.
Calling us up by name.
Indicating the (totally unnecessary) plastic bags for the maps - (after 4 hours mauling in the constant rain, uncovered, mine is still as good as new. Was the paper Pretex?)
Showing C Course runners the course correction
Starting us all.

Little wonder that the basic instruction as to where the start kite was, was not given.

Nevertheless the event was great fun - despite the multitude of map changes which Harveys need to know about. When all else failed - the contours were right!

Thank you NATO.