Osteopath or homeopath?

[Adventure Racer]

I wonder if there are a number of people involved in the more alternative therapies that are just crooks and are exploiting the fact that the effectiveness of the treatment cannot be scientifically proven?

(noting the repeated lumping together of herbalism which has some merits and homeopathy which doesn't) It's worse than that with homeopathy - the effectiveness has been scientifically disproven! I suspect most people involved aren't crooks though, but genuinely believe in what they're doing, after all it does require belief for homeopathy to have any effect at all

[graeme]

I wonder if there are a number of people involved in the more alternative therapies that are just crooks and are exploiting the fact that the effectiveness of the treatment cannot be scientifically proven?

The placebo effect is an extremely well scientifically proven effective cure.

Throughout childhood, minor scrapes and bumps were cured by mum kissing it better (the homeopathic equivalent of a headbutt ). She wasn't a crook! Its probably illegal for dads nowadays though

And for the NHS to prescribe 30C arnica for a cold, rather than antibiotics as they frequently do now, would be no bad thing either.

[SeanC]

Placebo effect? Maybe the magic ingredient was hope. When the treatment didn't work he hoped the next one would. I'm sure that made him feel a little better....

Ironically he claims to be the inventor of Special Brew, or at least the marketing concept of selling ultra strong lager (it was originally aimed at professional commuters on trains apparently, not alcoholics). That's one alternative therapy which does have a scientifically proven effect.

[Suzy R Sopham]

After my run last night I tested out this homeopathy malarky.
I figured that sodium chloride taken in large quantities can cause vomiting, abdominal cramps, and even lead to coma and even death, so I decided to make up homeopathic Sodium Chloride in 30X potency to ensure that it was very powerful!
As with all medicine, dosage is of vital importance so I drank 2L of the stuff to make sure, and I didn't feel sick at all and I proved to myself that homeopathic remedies can be useful for dehydration. (but I'd take that with a pinch of salt!)

[AndyO]

What is the problem with alternative therapies that some posters here seem to get so upset about?

"There is no scientific proof" - so what?
"It's only water" - big deal!

Suzy seems to detest homeopathy so much that she is busy rewriting homeopathic theory

You might be forgiven for thinking that all is well with the NHS, but I can think of a few complaints myself:

A member of my family was prescribed Mogadon as an anti-depressant to help her "get through" her youngest daughter's wedding! She was like a zombie the whole day, became addicted to the pills for a time, and it took some serious intervention to get her over it. An aquaintance of mine is a GP - just got huge pay increase for working less hours - and for years has been entertained to meals at exclusive restaurants (with his wife) courtesy of drugs companies. Has been to Europe (Spain and other destinations) to attend "seminars" as a guest of the same companies. The NHS could save bucketloads of cash by prescribing generic drugs instead of branded products, but struggles to make progress. Junior doctors, and nurses, are paid a pittance, work unsocial hours while being excluded from the working hours directive, and are treated like sh!t while consultants are pandered to right, left and centre, and can take on private patients in NHS hospitals, while waiting lists and times grow longer. MRSA is present in hospitals to the extent that you might be safer having an operation performed in the hospital car park!

Chocolate carving knife? The smarties that have all the answers to other therapies should perhaps turn their attention to some of the drug pushers and charlatans that inhabit their world

[Ed]

wow! that straw man really did just take a battering.

as for MRSA, perhaps you've heard of Christopher Malyszewicz? If not I suggest you read this article. In fact, try all the articles linked from here.

I think you've missed the point that people are making here - you can't lump all alternative therapies together and say "you're with us or against us". Some "alternative" therapies are sound (up to a point), some are snake oil, smoke and mirrors (or homeopathy, magnets and crystals). If you personally wish to waste your money on sugar pills and water then that is your prerogative and you'll be making a charlatan somewhere very happy, and probably very rich as well (after all, no expensive medical testing, quality control or production of active ingredients required).

I would suggest that anyone who relies on such quackery for anything serious (malaria prevention, for instance) is probably going to do their bit for the evolution of the human race, but since when they get really ill they'd probably demand treatment on the NHS then they'd do their bit towards reducing the effectiveness of the health service on the way.

yes the NHS may not be wonderfully efficient, but wasting money on "therapies" which either have no proven benefit or are proven to have no benefit will not improve that.

charlatans indeed. presumably you'd be happy to recommend sperm 30c as a contraceptive?

[SeanC]

There might be a slight drift away from the subject of orienteering

A related question to the original post. If a fellow club member gets injured and needs treatment, who should do the treatment?

I ask this question because my experience with the NHS isnt good in this respect. The GP's I have seen have had very variable abilities to treat soft muscle injuries and even more variable motivation to do anything about it. The worst advice regarding an ankle injury was "your ankles seem a bit weak, go home and dont worry about it" (eventually diagnosed by a specialist as scarring around a nerve - currently on the waiting list for an operation!). But an inexperienced orienteer will probably go to the GP and might end up giving up the sport because of the inappropriately treated injury. NHS physiotheraphy usually involves a good few weeks wait, by which time the injury could be a good deal worse.

So what should we advise a newly injured orienteer to do?

See his GP? (free but might not get the right treatment)
Wait for NHS physiotheraphy (and wait a month for appropriate treatment)?
Pay for private physiotheraphy (fine for middle class orienteers who can afford it, or those with private medical insurance, but what about those that can't afford it)?
Pay for an alternative theraphy (which might be cheaper (?) but is it as effective?).

[FatBoy]

The issue is harder than that Sean. If you have a injury and you're serious about your orienteering - then you find the cash. Same as if you need new running shoes, entry fee, petrol to get to race etc. The problem is perhaps highlighted by your own injury though - which specialist do you pay to see? Physio, osteopath, chiropractor, podiatrist, surgeon, sports massage? Sometimes it's clean cut, sometimes one hasn't got a clue where to start and surely that's where the GP should come in? I'm sure there are sports friendly GPs out there, some of which probably post here, but general experience has told me that by enlarge they'll happily tell you you're a bit overweight but then not help you get that injury sorted

[Ed]

So what should we advise a newly injured orienteer to do?

See his GP? (free but might not get the right treatment)
Wait for NHS physiotheraphy (and wait a month for appropriate treatment)?
Pay for private physiotheraphy (fine for middle class orienteers who can afford it, or those with private medical insurance, but what about those that can't afford it)?
Pay for an alternative theraphy (which might be cheaper (?) but is it as effective?).

In order of likely effectiveness:

1. go private for a chartered physio specialising in sports injuries (fast specialist treatment is usually the most effective)
2. see the GP (particularly if you know a GP who is a sportsman/woman or sympathetic to sports)
3. wait for NHS physio (by the time you get it then it may require more treatment, or have gone away by itself).
4=. do nothing
4=. go to the bookies to try and win enough money for private physio
4=. play alternative therapy bingo

[Suzy R Sopham]

The last few comments about NHS physio keep emphasing the waiting time:
I don't know about other areas of the country, but in Greater Glasgow there is a Direct Access to Physio where you can speak to a physio that day (without going through your GP) and be seen within a maximum of 3 days, and in Lanarkshire and Forth Valley there are Acute Soft Tissue injury clincs which your GP can refer you to and you should be seen within 1 week.

[Suzy R Sopham]

The last few comments about NHS physio keep emphasing the waiting time:
I don't know about other areas of the country, but in Greater Glasgow there is a Direct Access to Physio where you can speak to a physio that day (without going through your GP) and be seen within a maximum of 3 days, and in Lanarkshire and Forth Valley there are Acute Soft Tissue injury clincs which your GP can refer you to and you should be seen within 1 week.

[SeanC]

Ed wrote

"go to the bookies to try and win enough money for private physio "

I'm surprised no-one suggested

"start a company supplying homeopathic remidies to pay for private physio"

The dodgy ankle is an interesting case. If this is too long and boring, please skip this paragraph. I sprained it badly a couple of years ago. The private physio treated the main damage in the ankle (mobilizing the joint, massaging away the scarring etc) but the ankle kept getting sore after running, and especially on rough ground. The physio said the ankle looked pretty good and couldnt find the cause of teh continuing pain and suggested I visit a specialist. Unfortunately this required a referral from the unco-operative GP who initially told me to not worry about it. He was resistant to referring me to the specialist until I said the magic words "I've got private medical insurance". The private insurance paid for various scans and X-rays, but the conclusion was that I had to see a second specialist. By this time I'd moved to a job with no private medical insurance so had to pay for a private consultation and more tests(to skip the 6-12 months wait). The specialist was very excited as its an unusual injury, scarring around the nerve on the side of the leg which refers pain to the ankle. The last case he had seen was also an orienteer. Now I am on the waiting list for the op which is very likely to completely cure the problem.

Phew, anyway my experience concurs with FatBoy's and Ed's opinion. To get that far cost me about £750. My experience of NHS physios is a 6 week wait (though it may be better now).

Two questions for debate:

1. Each club will soon have a person responsible for child welfare. Isnt it equally/more important for the club to have a person who can advise on where to get the best sports treatment in their area? What do other clubs do in this respect? Or is this a can of worms to be avioded?

2. An 18 year old joins a club for a year, and gets a bad injury. NHS physiotheraphy isnt so good in their area and private physiotheraphy is the best treatment. The 18 year old is on a low wage. What should happen?

[johnloguk]

There is always going to be a lottery element to treatment because of human nature. Just as there are good and bad orienteers, there are also good and bad doctors, physios etc. Of course it isn't even that clear cut, and each degree of "good/bad" has shades of "fairly good/bad" etc etc.

My own experience has shown that some GPs (most people's first stop for an injury) are spot on, and might even have a budget in their surgery for instant and free referral to a sports injuries clinic/physio/chiropractic etc. Then there are others that aren't interested unless they can prescribe something, or who simply tell you to go home and "rest it".

As the result of my own experiences I now do the following. I go to a chiropractor maybe once a year for a check over of the old back "problem", and coupled with the exercises he has given me this has kept me fit and active for years. At the first sign of any other injury, in the last few years this has included ankle/knee and hamstring, I go straight to a sports injuries clinic. It costs me about £25 a session (minus the discount that he gives our club), and is worth every penny. The trick seems to be getting treatment fast, and usually it is sorted in a couple of sessions at the most.

But my experiences don't necessarilly mean that everyone should do the same. I think I'm lucky to have a good chiropractor and excellent sports injuries clinic close by, and some sessions have been paid for by the GP. Anecdotally I know of friends who have waited months for NHS physio, and their condition has worsened while waiting, but I accept that other areas might be quicker.

Talk to people, gather information and knowledge, but most of all find out what works for you.

Homeopathy? Nah, you must be mad , but as many people have said, let's not confuse other "alternative therapies" with the real crackpot end.

[johnloguk]

There is always going to be a lottery element to treatment because of human nature. Just as there are good and bad orienteers, there are also good and bad doctors, physios etc. Of course it isn't even that clear cut, and each degree of "good/bad" has shades of "fairly good/bad" etc etc.

My own experience has shown that some GPs (most people's first stop for an injury) are spot on, and might even have a budget in their surgery for instant and free referral to a sports injuries clinic/physio/chiropractic etc. Then there are others that aren't interested unless they can prescribe something, or who simply tell you to go home and "rest it".

As the result of my own experiences I now do the following. I go to a chiropractor maybe once a year for a check over of the old back "problem", and coupled with the exercises he has given me this has kept me fit and active for years. At the first sign of any other injury, in the last few years this has included ankle/knee and hamstring, I go straight to a sports injuries clinic. It costs me about £25 a session (minus the discount that he gives our club), and is worth every penny. The trick seems to be getting treatment fast, and usually it is sorted in a couple of sessions at the most.

But my experiences don't necessarilly mean that everyone should do the same. I think I'm lucky to have a good chiropractor and excellent sports injuries clinic close by, and some sessions have been paid for by the GP. Anecdotally I know of friends who have waited months for NHS physio, and their condition has worsened while waiting, but I accept that other areas might be quicker.

Talk to people, gather information and knowledge, but most of all find out what works for you.

Homeopathy? Nah, you must be mad , but as many people have said, let's not confuse other "alternative therapies" with the real crackpot end.

[Marco Polo]

2. An 18 year old joins a club for a year, and gets a bad injury. NHS physiotheraphy isnt so good in their area and private physiotheraphy is the best treatment. The 18 year old is on a low wage. What should happen?

Get them to apply to Glasgow Uni?