As with so much, there is no one solution. I can only agree with most of the points Godders raises on family recruitment, and also with Graeme's. However, I think one thing has not been sufficiently emphasised here, although Graeme touches on it: it doesn't matter how good or well structured regional squads, national squads or BOF are, the core of the sport is the club, and the orienteering available at this level.
This is particularly so today. One of the things that has changed in the 15 years Godders refers to is the competition. There is a lot more of it from other sports and activities, and some of those are extremely well organised. Orienteering has to be easily accessible locally, and has to be to be good quality and meaningful (e.g. Graeme's point about pre-marked maps; the appropriate grading and distance of courses as somebody else pointed out).
Sub-national competitions also need to be something for most competitors to aspire to. Thre is far too much emphasis on national level events like British, JK, selection races for national tours etc - these are (or at least should) be important only for a tiny minority of the orienteering population. I can't think of another sport where regional and area championships are so low key and so lowly valued - just look at the attendance at the recent Northern Champs, and look at what the recognition is (zilch), and as for this weekend's Yorkshires! Of course, this might partly be based on the massive number of classes that seem to increase at the same rate that numbers decline.
Equally, clubs need to develop a much stronger approach to providing means for people to stick with the sport and getting to know others in the sport, e.g. coaching (and other related activiities!).
I could go on (interminably!), but all I'm really trying to point out is that it is the clubs who are going to recruit, and it is primarily the clubs that need to retain. A very large proportion of those who get through to regional, and even more so national, level stay in the sport. Not so for clubs. And every orienteer here is a member of a club (no, I'm not getting at anybody, just pointing out the possibilities!)
Again, this isn't the sole answer, but one of many. It's just one that I feel has not been developed as much in this discussion. In proportion, I think the issues of Start, squads etc. whilst important, particularly for many people here, are not overwhelmingly so.
Later edit: can only agree wholeheartedly with Neil's point about silly names, which I think is exacerbated by the continual use of acronyms. Look at event reports - one I read recently didn't actually include a single club name, just obscure initials.
Andrew
Future of Orienteering
Moderators: [nope] cartel, team nopesport
Neil M35 wrote:And just to keep Graeme happy we can invent N7 for long distance runners who can't navigate. Just remember they are real orienteers too.
You mean "haven't learnt to navigate yet".
And yes, they are real orienteers. If we hope to get decent numbers we have to appeal to people who enjoy the whole spectrum of running/navigation, from fell running to trail-o. Just because you're more inclined towards the trail-o end of things than I am shouldn't make me a non-orienteer.
Graeme
(Edinburgh Interlopers - at least we were till godders took over the website )
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graeme - god
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A real discussion!
I have only restarted orienteering again recently and only have to look at these pages to smile. Over the past 3-4 years, I have tried other sports and grown up a bit. In doing so it has given me a new perspective on the sport.
The names given to things such as white - brown or SI Card give the sport an air of mystery. At the end of the day you start asking questions like what is this and what is that. People are nosey and want to find out stuff. I was training for sparring in karate for 4 years in Japanese - that is so much harder than the terminology in orienteering. But not knowing stuff made me work that much harder to make sure I knew it for the next time.
For clubs - They NEED to get a kit together for new orienteers - compasses, whistles pens and pins which they can lend for free. When I introduce people to orienteering I either use my stuff or have to beg borrow or steal kit for others to use. So get stuff for others please clubs, they have to be free to use.
I have been planning some new ideas, a while back there were CATI (come and try it) events. These were'nt exactly a success as people rarely attended the events. I was going to suggest BYOF events - Bring your own friends. Events set up for beginners where orienteers coax/force people who have never orienteered before to try the sport. Courses for runners/ less fit people etc..
Afterwards perhaps, an organised social - so people get to become part of the community rather than just outsiders. This is important as getting to know people makes orienteering that much more interesting - look at how people hang around assembly areas for one thing.
The sport also seems to have a lot of people (including myself) who talk a lot of hot air, but do little about it. Go out - introduce people to the sport - make sure they have fun!
I have only restarted orienteering again recently and only have to look at these pages to smile. Over the past 3-4 years, I have tried other sports and grown up a bit. In doing so it has given me a new perspective on the sport.
The names given to things such as white - brown or SI Card give the sport an air of mystery. At the end of the day you start asking questions like what is this and what is that. People are nosey and want to find out stuff. I was training for sparring in karate for 4 years in Japanese - that is so much harder than the terminology in orienteering. But not knowing stuff made me work that much harder to make sure I knew it for the next time.
For clubs - They NEED to get a kit together for new orienteers - compasses, whistles pens and pins which they can lend for free. When I introduce people to orienteering I either use my stuff or have to beg borrow or steal kit for others to use. So get stuff for others please clubs, they have to be free to use.
I have been planning some new ideas, a while back there were CATI (come and try it) events. These were'nt exactly a success as people rarely attended the events. I was going to suggest BYOF events - Bring your own friends. Events set up for beginners where orienteers coax/force people who have never orienteered before to try the sport. Courses for runners/ less fit people etc..
Afterwards perhaps, an organised social - so people get to become part of the community rather than just outsiders. This is important as getting to know people makes orienteering that much more interesting - look at how people hang around assembly areas for one thing.
The sport also seems to have a lot of people (including myself) who talk a lot of hot air, but do little about it. Go out - introduce people to the sport - make sure they have fun!
Now, I know you're a feminist, and I think that's adorable, but this is grown-up time and I'm the man.
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Braddie - light green
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It's interesting to see what Graeme etc have pointed out, and how people have come into the sport. I think I may be fairly unique in this group in that I had no exposure to orienteering through school, my family don't orienteer and I'm certainly not a cross-country runner! My only pre-university experiences were through the Scouts, and that was one event a year (the county competition). I wanted to get involved a bit more through my secondary school years but found I couldn't because events were too far away from me and so I couldn't get to them particularly easily. it was a bit by chance that I stumbled across OUOC at the freshers fair, and seeing my experiences were limited I had no idea what electronic punching was and only knew of colour-coded events, didn't know how clubs worked and was quite surprised to find the number of different levels that the sport operated at. however, the last year has got me hooked on the sport, and I would never have had the chance if I hadn't been to uni - I don't think I would ever have considered visiting somewhere like Slovenia or Lithuania otherwise.
i don't know how many people there are out there who have had such limited exposure, and have come into the sport with a vague navigational background and not a running one, but perhaps to get more interest in the sport there are two areas that could be tapped into a bit more - running clubs and scouts, where there's a greater likelihood of grabbing people. and i agree with those who have said about de-jargonising orienteering - its fine for those in the know but if you were fairly new to the sport and looking at entering a regional event, then how are you meant to know what an M21 E, L, S, V or N is, and which to enter? make o a bit more 'user friendly' to those new to the sport - a nice 'interface' to greet them and suck them in, a bit like [nope] really but I suppose as Braddie has said all sports have their own jargon - it's just orienteering seems to have a bit too much in comparison to some other sports.
i don't know how many people there are out there who have had such limited exposure, and have come into the sport with a vague navigational background and not a running one, but perhaps to get more interest in the sport there are two areas that could be tapped into a bit more - running clubs and scouts, where there's a greater likelihood of grabbing people. and i agree with those who have said about de-jargonising orienteering - its fine for those in the know but if you were fairly new to the sport and looking at entering a regional event, then how are you meant to know what an M21 E, L, S, V or N is, and which to enter? make o a bit more 'user friendly' to those new to the sport - a nice 'interface' to greet them and suck them in, a bit like [nope] really but I suppose as Braddie has said all sports have their own jargon - it's just orienteering seems to have a bit too much in comparison to some other sports.
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distracted - addict
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Mrs H. wrote:I would like to congratulate Ben on making what I consider to be the single most powerful and poignant post on this entire web site - there you have the future of orienteering in a nutshell
Here Here
Orienteering is about socialising just as much as the event
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rob f - yellow
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This time last year I had never tried orienteering and was a very reluctant jogger. The first event I went to I did a yellow and an orange course, coming back soaking wet and scratched but hooked.
I agree with the suggestions that we should try to make orienteering more accessible to student and adult beginners as if I hadn't had the help of a member of the junior british squad I wouldn't have known where to start - events are only advertised in places where people who are already orienteers look (it also took me a wee while to remember how to take a bearing )
Advertising in running clubs is a great idea (UWOC have poached several cross-country runners). Kids/students who have enjoyed the Duke of Edinburgh course would also be a good target since they will have some navigational skills and won't be afraid of puddles/brambles hopefully.
What about having any/more street races in the UK, surely this would raise the profile of the sport?
I agree with the suggestions that we should try to make orienteering more accessible to student and adult beginners as if I hadn't had the help of a member of the junior british squad I wouldn't have known where to start - events are only advertised in places where people who are already orienteers look (it also took me a wee while to remember how to take a bearing )
Advertising in running clubs is a great idea (UWOC have poached several cross-country runners). Kids/students who have enjoyed the Duke of Edinburgh course would also be a good target since they will have some navigational skills and won't be afraid of puddles/brambles hopefully.
What about having any/more street races in the UK, surely this would raise the profile of the sport?
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SJ - blue
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SJ wrote:events are only advertised in places where people who are already orienteers look
now with the advent of the internet it must be a hell of a lot better than it used to be, otherwise i entirely agree - events are very well advertised to those in orienteering circles, but if you want to get more people in then somehow you've got to advertise outside that group. the emphasis on "somehow" - as I think we've already found out it's a hell of a lot more difficult than it would seem. but there are methods - noticeboards, local papers, the outdoors show...
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distracted - addict
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but not many people would randomly search to find the bof webpage so it's hard even with the internet.
also with the DoE most people in my school do it anyway and a lot of them aren't sporty or outdoor friendly and the map reading isn't taught that well either. my teacher made me teach my group how to navigate using an OS map, saved her the job!
also with the DoE most people in my school do it anyway and a lot of them aren't sporty or outdoor friendly and the map reading isn't taught that well either. my teacher made me teach my group how to navigate using an OS map, saved her the job!
- Jo
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The only way to do it would have someone pay for the yahoo/google search engines to have the information displayed when the search strings are input
Now, I know you're a feminist, and I think that's adorable, but this is grown-up time and I'm the man.
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Braddie - light green
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When you are talking about attracting people thru adventure sports etc and keeping long courses etc. No body has mentioned the brain power element the attraction that every course is different and needs different strategies. The kids I've seen drop out have usually done so either because the travelling is impossible or that they like running but don't enjoy the map reading challenge. We've got to face it there will be fall out, so we have to continue to get more members but most of these students are familiar to me as they found O either at School or with their families, and have continued. It's much harder if you have no family orienteering but if you want to do it you can. Ask Craney or Rob and Gaz. Clubs and friends help out. We're back to the social side again. When I visited Uni's this year with Sprog 1, we saw several people we knew from all over the country cos we'd been orienteering. Most kids are lucky to have friends outside their home town. Squads and Start etc are great for juniors because of the social side. Again and again. However some juniors are put off cos they feel left out as they are not squaddies, that is where some are lost. These may not be brilliant Orienteers but the sport needs OPrganisers and Planners and other helpers, these aren't usually the elite they are those who do short courses and enjoy the challenge of the forest as opposed to the idea of success.
Diets and fitness are no good if you can't read the map.
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HOCOLITE - addict
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distracted wrote:It's interesting to see what Graeme etc have pointed out, and how people have come into the sport. I think I may be fairly unique in this group in that I had no exposure to orienteering through school, my family don't orienteer and I'm certainly not a cross-country runner! My only pre-university experiences were through the Scouts, and that was one event a year (the county competition). I wanted to get involved a bit more through my secondary school years but found I couldn't because events were too far away from me and so I couldn't get to them particularly easily. it was a bit by chance that I stumbled across OUOC at the freshers fair
Not unique at all. Many of my era of JOK types had a pretty similar background (I can list a dozen or so who started at uni, went on to run elite, serve on club committees, plan, control, organise and still orienteer). I'm a bit different - I'd never encountered orienteering before uni (not even in scouts) and despite lack of talent I enjoyed cross country running (I'd made the uni fifth team once and came next-to-last in the Devon schools). Having stumbled on OUOC at the freshers fair I resolved to try it the first Sunday, but didn't get up in time (you can guess why...). Three years later(!) I went to my first event and got hooked.
But I agree that this route into the sport is almost unknown nowadays.
And I've still never been to Lithuania or Slovenia.
Graeme
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graeme - god
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Again - not that unique: most of my circle of friends who are my generation started either through school (as I did - none of the rest of my family ever got involved) or through the university club. Very few, if any, came from orienteering families. Very few of us had a major impact competitively (except one who did get to the World Champs from taking up at uni), none of us even getting onto BOF tours, or into regional squads (there were none), but we've all become active competitors coaches, mappers, planners, controllers, and parents of young orienteers etc. The reason was club activity - mostly through the university initially, but in my case there was sufficient to keep me involved when I left uni.
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awk - god
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Thoughts on various threads
Getting new people in...we've recently been targetting local running clubs and including a Purple course (v long orange 7km but easy) with reasonable success. We've also advertised near the venue and even had people turn up having seen notices on village notice boards. You do need a good help desk to educate people as to what is going on and answer the questions.
Why people drop out after leaving school...probably because they get a job, get married, get a mortgage, get fatter, produce future champions etc. It's just a lifestyle change that unless you are at the elite end of the sport, you have to adjust to and unfortunately, the orienteering is what has to give. For me, it was lack of ability to get to events at Uni (in London without a car) and also having to compete at a higher level than I was comfortable with. I came to the sport through school at the age of 16, and went from running a orange equivalent to a M17B courses and found the transition too much. Now as an M35, I came back to the sport a two years ago and run the same courses as before at badge (sorry, Regional) events and can now reach Bronze standard. (It's the speed I lack, not the navigation). It is unlikely that I will ever be a champion, but that doesn't stop me enjoying it. It has however taken 20 years for me to accept the fact that it is okay to finish last but one. Whilst I'd love to finish higher, (and often do) it is one of the few sports that is a challenge in its own right, and where you can compete at your own level (unlike say cycle racing).
What's wrong with British Orienteering...we could do with training courses for those adults who come to the sport and want to improve, but the only courses are for the juniors. (what are juniors anyway? we don't have any in our club!) This would be good for teaching the fell runners how to navigate (what are fell runners?, we don't even have contours on our maps!)
Other problems... are grumpy old men who regard the club / event as their personal fiefdom and put everyone off orienteering and or helping at the events. Organisers who say the need you help, drag you to the event, only to not need you after all (and the rest of the family had to come in a separate car). Juniors (M/W12s) running white courses (or worse the string course) - come on my six year old wins white courses, you should be on orange by now yer big jessies !
Oh, and my wife's pet hate.....lack of proper toilets (or even a SpeedyLoo).
Why people drop out after leaving school...probably because they get a job, get married, get a mortgage, get fatter, produce future champions etc. It's just a lifestyle change that unless you are at the elite end of the sport, you have to adjust to and unfortunately, the orienteering is what has to give. For me, it was lack of ability to get to events at Uni (in London without a car) and also having to compete at a higher level than I was comfortable with. I came to the sport through school at the age of 16, and went from running a orange equivalent to a M17B courses and found the transition too much. Now as an M35, I came back to the sport a two years ago and run the same courses as before at badge (sorry, Regional) events and can now reach Bronze standard. (It's the speed I lack, not the navigation). It is unlikely that I will ever be a champion, but that doesn't stop me enjoying it. It has however taken 20 years for me to accept the fact that it is okay to finish last but one. Whilst I'd love to finish higher, (and often do) it is one of the few sports that is a challenge in its own right, and where you can compete at your own level (unlike say cycle racing).
What's wrong with British Orienteering...we could do with training courses for those adults who come to the sport and want to improve, but the only courses are for the juniors. (what are juniors anyway? we don't have any in our club!) This would be good for teaching the fell runners how to navigate (what are fell runners?, we don't even have contours on our maps!)
Other problems... are grumpy old men who regard the club / event as their personal fiefdom and put everyone off orienteering and or helping at the events. Organisers who say the need you help, drag you to the event, only to not need you after all (and the rest of the family had to come in a separate car). Juniors (M/W12s) running white courses (or worse the string course) - come on my six year old wins white courses, you should be on orange by now yer big jessies !
Oh, and my wife's pet hate.....lack of proper toilets (or even a SpeedyLoo).
- PorkyFatBoy
I have been watching this discussion on and off for the last week or so. I did a bit of orienteering with scouts in the late 1960's early 1970's. Most of the junior competitors at this time came from schools and non-affiliated clubs such as scout groups and were not members of O clubs. I then had a thirty year break before I started orienterring again a couple of years ago following encouragement from my 13 year old daughter. I now run M45s and am slowly but surely improving my skill and speed.
I have a few rambling thoughts on issues that one may want to consider if the sport is to develop:
there is a complete lack of understanding amongst what should be our target audience of what the sport actually is. When someone thinks of orienteering do they think of Jamie Stevenson or do they think of someone with a walking stick and a map? Ask a bunch of strangers down the pub or at the local running club. This can only really be addressed on a national level. Whether the sport has the resources to address this issue is another matter.
the sport is not particularly friendly to newcomers. Arriving at my first event for 30 years there was an (unintentional) arrogance amongst the helpers. Most newcomers will only turn up once and will not persevere. If they feel uncomfortable they will try another sport next time. Simple things like the starter pack (compass, pen etc) mentioned by someone earlier would help and elimination of the jargon.
The sport is most likely to attract new (adult) participants from the other running or outdoor pursuit sports and should take advantage of the current fitness boom. However, orienteering is a very complex sport and a more gentle crossover is needed. A 21 year old does not want to run a 2KM orange, but neither would they want to get lost on a more technical course. As I said, only one chance to hook them. What would be more effective for the sport leaving pamphlets of your clubs activities and fixtures at an orienteering event or at the end of a local cross country race or 10km road race? Do we spend too effort preaching to the already converted rather than stimulating the unconverted?
Kids have a different problem, particularly if they are not from orienteering stock. It is not seen as a "cool" sport Hence the importance of the social side of the sport if the kids are to be retained. This is not easy at the smaller clubs where there is often only a couple of juniors in each age group. Regional squads are therefore important given the current number of juniors participating.
Juniors also have the problem of transport. It often takes a long time to get to events and the support of parents and friends is vital. Parents who do not orienteer and yet are willing to spend a day of their valuable weekend acting as driver for their kids once a month are very rare. Clubs need to be pro-active to make sure that kids are not lost to the sport for this reasdon once they have shown an initial interest.[list]
:wink
I have a few rambling thoughts on issues that one may want to consider if the sport is to develop:
there is a complete lack of understanding amongst what should be our target audience of what the sport actually is. When someone thinks of orienteering do they think of Jamie Stevenson or do they think of someone with a walking stick and a map? Ask a bunch of strangers down the pub or at the local running club. This can only really be addressed on a national level. Whether the sport has the resources to address this issue is another matter.
the sport is not particularly friendly to newcomers. Arriving at my first event for 30 years there was an (unintentional) arrogance amongst the helpers. Most newcomers will only turn up once and will not persevere. If they feel uncomfortable they will try another sport next time. Simple things like the starter pack (compass, pen etc) mentioned by someone earlier would help and elimination of the jargon.
The sport is most likely to attract new (adult) participants from the other running or outdoor pursuit sports and should take advantage of the current fitness boom. However, orienteering is a very complex sport and a more gentle crossover is needed. A 21 year old does not want to run a 2KM orange, but neither would they want to get lost on a more technical course. As I said, only one chance to hook them. What would be more effective for the sport leaving pamphlets of your clubs activities and fixtures at an orienteering event or at the end of a local cross country race or 10km road race? Do we spend too effort preaching to the already converted rather than stimulating the unconverted?
Kids have a different problem, particularly if they are not from orienteering stock. It is not seen as a "cool" sport Hence the importance of the social side of the sport if the kids are to be retained. This is not easy at the smaller clubs where there is often only a couple of juniors in each age group. Regional squads are therefore important given the current number of juniors participating.
Juniors also have the problem of transport. It often takes a long time to get to events and the support of parents and friends is vital. Parents who do not orienteer and yet are willing to spend a day of their valuable weekend acting as driver for their kids once a month are very rare. Clubs need to be pro-active to make sure that kids are not lost to the sport for this reasdon once they have shown an initial interest.[list]
:wink
- Nigel
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