BOC - Moan about entry costs

[El]

So for the cost of watching Fulham or Neil Sedaka I can attend 9 EA district events - not really a hard call is it.

I don't think 9 EA District events would tempt many people . . . hardly the highest quality of orienteering is it?! (and that is not saying anything about the standard of events provided by EA - they're always excellent, it's just a shame there aren't areas to match.)

On the main topic - £13 does sound like quite a lot but as was said before if BOC turns out to be the pinnacle of UK orienteering in 2006 then it'll be worth it.

[NeilC]

Who is the mapper?

Roger Maher of SO/RLM maps - probably the most productive mapper in the SE.

[SeanC]

HOCOLITE wrote:

"I think the punter is probably voting with his feet in reg v district debate. If you look at recent regional events the entry numbers are hardly stunning, particularly on junior courses. Either the sport is in general decline or people are deciding not to travel and pay higher fees for regional events when they can get similar from a district. "

There were over 300 at Westerham on sunday, about 100 more than we would expect for a district event in the same area. However we ran some colour coded courses as well.

Do BOF record our levy returns in a database? If so the data must be there to see if and by how much district event and/or regional event entries are declining. I bet there's a SQL programmer reading this who could easily help BOF write a query to pull the numbers out of the database.

Carnage Head wrote

"Top class organisation and a laid-back feel combine with cheap entries and entry-on-the-day to give AIRE District events a feel of value for money, which attracts and retains many casual orienteers (whoever they might be!)."

I seem to remember from the "orienteering in 20's/30's" thread that AIRE also have a very effective publicity officer as well.

And then Carnage Head wrote

"The one costly aspect of o which I think could be tackled better by increased co-ordination is transport and share-a-lift schemes. Does any club run an active share-a-lift scheme?"

Not heard of one, but good old Nopesport has the travel forum. Perhaps the original guest poster could save his entry fee by looking for a lift on this forum?

You could probably set up a more efficient internet car sharing scheme. The industrial estate I work at has a car sharing scheme where you register as offering lifts, then it matches you with those wanting lifts - a bit like a dating agency. Maybe there are schemes like this orienteering could piggy back onto somehow? It would need publicity to work though. The possiblities could be amusing, maybe the driver could rate the passenger for timekeeping, quality of banter etc, and the passenger could rate the drivers ability - blacklisting road ragers and sunday drivers

[FatBoy]

FatBoy wrote:

mikey wrote:

Go and see Fulham - £38
Take part in the Questars Adventure race - £40
Run the South Coast 1/2 marathon - £20
Go and see Steptoe and Son at the Comedy Theatre - £35
Go and see Neil Sedaka in Brighton - £35


But cost of BOC is more than all of those once you've included and accommodation and petrol so your example isn't very good.

But you'd have to travel to do any of those things, so it's not fair to include travel costs in one case and not the other - and as a football match and a 1/2 marathon take a similar time to an orienteering course, if you'd need an overnight stay to do one, then you would for the other as well, so again we should compare like with like.

You missed the the part of my quote where I said I wouldn't travel from up here to down there to do any of those. If they were more local e.g. Go and see Derby (for the record I don't support Derby...) then no I wouldn't need accomodation and travel would be a small amount.

Point is all those things listed are regional things which have alternatives closer to home. BOC is a national thing.

[HOCOLITE]

[quote="SeanC"]HOCOLITE wrote:

"There were over 300 at Westerham on sunday, about 100 more than we would expect for a district event in the same area. However we ran some colour coded courses as well.

Sean I was pleased about your numbers but there were so few juniors, these are the future how many classes had just one competitor. When my sons ran M10B the lowest number ever was 3 and more commonly it was 10-15 and M10 A usually had 15-20 competitors. I know younger juniors often do the colour coded courses with parents, but it worries me the numbers that do regional events, is the title frightening? is the procedure frightening? are the badges not cool anymore? Or is it the need to enter in advance? If you compare the number of juniors at the WAOC district event they are significantly higher.

I'm involved in a schools championships, we've had a large number of entries from primary but a really poor entry from secondary, is this again the committment and the need to get entry fees from pupils?

[awk]

Do BOF record our levy returns in a database? If so the data must be there to see if and by how much district event and/or regional event entries are declining.

Yes they do. It's going back a bit now, but when I was working for BOF we did just this sort of analysis. The results showed that numbers at regional events were falling a lot faster than at district. Indeed, numbers at district events were holding up very nicely.

On Hocolite's comments about junior numbers at regional events: the last time I did some work on this (a year or two back), junior numbers had started to stabilise, and indeed in some areas had started to climb again. However, the figures are very patchy - the SE for instance has long had very low junior numbers, at least at regional level, so looking at the Westerham event will likely lead to some gloom if taken in isolation. However, quite a lot of juniors choose the colour courses rather than badge classes - not surprising really given that there is usually a price difference but little or no difference in the orienteering - an oddity which was addressed but has now been reintroduced.

[HOCOLITE]

Look at the junior entry for the British, below those eligible for FCC. It's hardly stunning

[awk]

Look at the junior entry for the British, below those eligible for FCC. It's hardly stunning

No it isn't but......

as part of my BOF work I developed a spreadsheet of junior numbers (M/W18-) at BOC since 1971. Overall this has highlighted the steady decline in numbers attending the British since a peak in around 1993.

However, it is good to see that, apart from Wharnecliff three years ago, the entry numbers to date already show the best junior attendance at a British since the last British before the foot and mouth outbreak.

It is true that this will partly be because of the locations of the BOCs in that time. Last year, in particular, saw one of the lowest junior attendances ever at a British, worsted only by the one in Northern Ireland and Achilty 1986. This succession of awkward to access BOCs will have done zilch to promote the BOC as a junior event to those other than the most hardened aficionados, but at least we now see some sort of blip upwards. In fact, 3 more entries in W16-18 will see it the biggest combined entry in these classes since 1995.

A few comparisons with previous SE (and a couple of nearby SC) BOCs that might be of interest (M = M10-18, W = W10-18 ):

1975 White Downs: M= 322, W = 87, Tot = 409
1983 Ashdown: M = 227, W = 104 Tot = 331
1989 Star Posts: M = 336, W = 172 Tot = 508
1994 Goodwood: M = 250, W = 156 Tot = 406
1998 Mytchett: M = 235, W = 156 Tot = 391
2006 Midhurst: M = 197, W = 152 Tot = 349

Going back to Goodwood, the individual class numbers hold up well except for M18 (62 v 35) and M16 (66 v 46): these differences account for almost all the difference in numbers between the two events.

So - maybe not cause for big celebrations, but there are glimmers that it might not all be doom and gloom.

[HOCOLITE]

The M/W 18's are not the point as they are the progression through from the High years. It's the M/W 10's and 12's that are the real problem. Very often there are only one or two. At the recent Midland champs there was just one W12 entry, and that was Birmingham. It was half term but that shouldn't reduce the entry to 1.

I supppose it means START selection wont be controversial in the future Will they find enough to fill Laganlia

[SeanC]

Hocolite wrote

"Sean I was pleased about your numbers" (at Westerham) "but there were so few juniors, these are the future how many classes had just one competitor."

25 years ago I can remember M15 courses normally had 10-15. It must be dispiriting to be the only competitor on the course and I can see why juniors would choose to run colour coded for that reason alone.

We had 17 juniors on the string course though.

Awk wrote

"Yes they do." (talking about BOF saving levy data in a database. "It's going back a bit now, but when I was working for BOF we did just this sort of analysis. "

I wonder if they still save the data in the database and if they analyse the data? Id have thought reports on competitor and BOF membership numbers by age, event type, region and club could be very useful for identifying what's working with the sport and what isn't. Development resources (paid or otherwise) might then be directed to the areas of need, or alternatively successful clubs could be invited to tell us the secrets of their success.

Awk, I'm not sure if your a programmer, but there is a language called SQL which interrogates databases and gives you the statistics much easier than can be performed in a spreadsheet below might count the number of events between two dates:

Geeky interlude follows showing simple SQL statement........

SELECT count(*) from COMPETITIONS.EVENTS
where COMPETITION_DATE BETWEEN to_date('27-SEP-20050000','DD-MON-YYYYhh24mi') AND to_date('27-SEP-20062359','DD-MON-YYYYhh24mi')

A skilled SQL programmer could write BOF an intranet webpage that runs various reports answering the difficult statistical questions. I bet BOF could find a volunteer if they asked nicely! (not me, too busy, sorry)


What use would the data be? Personally I'd like to see the results of these reports on the BOF public website every 6 months. Personally I'd like to know if my club or my region was more or less active than the average so that something could be done within the club, but this might not go down well I know.

I had a look on the BOF site, but couldn't find any such reports, apologies if I didnt look hard enough.










with 20 competitors at badge events.

[Gross]

I bet BOF could find a volunteer if they asked nicely! (not me, too busy, sorry).

A typical response & pretty usless to! Asking BOF to find a volunteer to do something & saying don't ask me, ask someone else!!

[SeanC]

I'm just too busy to reply

[HOCOLITE]

A chap at our club did a statistical analysis of membership and activity of members(O only honest ) and put it in the magazine. Sean is right though, if you are putting effort in it would be useful to see if your effort is worth it. Sometimes pure numbers tell you but with respect to an organisation like BOF probably more statistical research would give everyone an idea on how successful an initiative. I'm sure the information is there and it is probably used internally but the members don't see it. Obviously a great long paper is not required, maybe some graphical trend info which is easy to interpret.

[FatBoy]

Reminds me of a Dilbert sketch:

"I like my status reports rendered in 3D, but don't spend too long on them..."

[awk]

It's the M/W 10's and 12's that are the real problem. Very often there are only one or two.

OK then, in this case the glimmer of hope is that it is the largest M10 entry for 7 years ,and is in fact the fourth highest M10 field ever.

W10 numbers are, on the other hand, as you say worryingly low.

At M/W12 level, BOC numbers interestingly seem to be the most sensitive class to the location, M12 particularly: 59 at Wharnecliff in 03, 86 in Herefordshire in 00 and 71 in the Lakes in 99, but just 26-31 in 01 (Anglesey), 04 (Simonside), 05 (Penhale) and this year.

Indeed, whilst I would not want to argue against the important need to boost numbers (whatever way you look at it, they are too low and have dropped badly over the years), it is important to remember that location is a major factor in attendance, and SE British Champs always attract lower numbers. If big numbers are wanted, then it needs to be held on a Bank Holiday weekend and/or in the Midlands/Yorkshire/Lake District. The only British to really break that rule was Newborough Warren in 1995. Equally - if you want lower numbers, hold them on the geographical edges of the UK on a non-holiday weekend, preferably in the far South West or far north of Scotland (last year's British was only one higher than the lowest ever - Achilty 86 - on mainland UK).

I do understand the reasons for circulating the British, but if (and it is if) one wanted to boost numbers at the British Champs, then the last thing that needed to be done was host all bar one of the post-F&M events in areas as peripheral as Magilligan, Simonside, Penhale and Midhurst. For numbers to go up, people need to get in the routine of attending, and none but absolutely the most committed will have done that in the past 5 years. Of course, there may be other priorities......