Junior Badge Scheme (again!)

[Klebe]

Agree with Jab.

Finding badge times is often a nightmare.

So long as we continue to put the age, as M10, M12 etc in the results of the JM3, JM4 etc results our offspring can monitor their places directly against their age group if they wish. This also allows them to see how many of their age group have moved up to the next JM/W level and acts as an incentive for them to move on.

Equally a newcomer to the sport entering as a 14 year old, will not have the technical ability or possible strength to compete at their age group level. It is offputting for them to enter an age 10 or 12 class. The JM/W allows them to compete at the level they are at without the stigma of running a 'baby' course.

I have found that the youngsters generally look at the results with an eye on their peer group and this is generally more important to them than the badge times. (Could have a lot to do with the fact that the results are instantaneous, the badge times may not appear until two or three more events later).
However, at colour coded events they were always really keen to see if they had achieved the colour standard and we check badge times as an indication of how well they are progressing within themselves. Theres a definate surge when they find they have finally, after umpteen silvers got a gold standard.

[Guest]

A conversation I recently overheard while looking at results.
Looks like I beat you by 1 1/2 minutes

Again,how are you doing on results?

Don't know really,the first two on the course are M16's I think,then I reckon the next two are M14's. So that means I'd be first if it was aproper event.

What is this JM rubbish?

Don't know, something some grown up has invented.

What do they know?
I think this probably says it all.

[redkite]

Lets cut to the chase.

The real issue is how to attract more juniors to the sport. Most of the problems would disappear if the classes were larger.

There are so few juniors in the sport competing at badge and national events that everyone knows each other any how, certainly within the same region.

Discuss!!

[Lumpy Lycra]

Sorry guest, it doesn't say it all - it says that Juniors who are experienced enough to do well within their age class like the old system. If the software & the results teams could make sure age class (or year of birth) went on the results then everyone could still spot the first M14 etc.

From personal experience - a daughter who "had" to run light green very early in her orienteering career in order to "be competetive" - I can well understand why the change was made.

[harry]

when i was 10 we went to australia and we did a bit of orienteering as my parents were doing the world veteran champs. we went to the xmas 5 days which had 5 courses, courses 1, 2, 3..etc. My brother and I did course 2, selected at random by my sadistic and evil, pushy parents . i was out for hours picking my way among the duck billed platypus filled marshes. day one i nearly collapsed on the beach afterwards because it was so hot, day 2 i ran off the map and was lost to the world for 90 minutes among the wallabies and kangaroos. after that it got better.
course 2 wasn't really designed for small children but i completed all the courses.
then in tasmania we did age class courses. i did w11 and all the aussie w11 girls laughed at me for being about 2foot shorter than them. but then i beat them. it was nice to win but i think the xmas 5 days had more of a lasting impression on me. /scar??
i guess the moral of this story is either that you can't choose your parents or it doesn't really matter which system as long as there are good guidelines as to what the courses mean and what is appropriate for different ages, abilities. is that the case? JM bla bla sounds pretty meaningless to a foreigner/ newcomer but then we don't get many foreigners at out badge events i suppose.

[Mrs H.]

I suggested to AWK right at the beginning that the ideal model would be to keep junior A classes for the kids who are on the right track and drop the B classes replacing that with ageless classes so that older newcomers can enter at a suitable level - know where they're heading and work they're way up to it in comfortable stages - always having the incentive to get to their age class. There are no b classes at the o-ringen but there are ageless U classes which we have entered our girls on a couple of times because they have free start times - and no parental splits - our girls have until recently liked to be supported on the start line - particularly in a foreign country even tho' they were running a course equivlent to their age class. I consider this to be an ideal model and would be interested if anyone can come up with anything better- so there! there is nothing more likely to put a child off than something like Melon's early experiences - mind you it doesn't seem to have done her any harm does it

[Jene]

although wouldnt that mean having alot more classes again?? which was the one of the problemsthe 1st time round wasnt it

although i cant work out how the number of classes has been reduced

Tatty:

Level 1 = M/W10B, White
Level 2 = M/W10A, M/W12B, yellow
Level 3 = M/W12A, M/W14B, orange
Level 4 = M/W14A, M/W16B, light green
JW5S = W16A
JW5L = W18A
JM5S = no equivalent
JM5M = M16A
JM5L = M18A

[Becks]

I think with the numbers that you get somewhere like the O Ringen then maybe that is the ideal system. But in ours, that would lead to even smaller age classes than before.

I'm beginning to think that redkite is right, the problem isn't the classes, people will run whatever you give them at the end of the day, but how to get more juniors so that they're all competitive.

And this is a circular arguement we've hit so many times.

[Mrs H.]

It's fewer classes than they're were before and no extra courses -it's just about choice and providing stepping stones up to age classes which were not there in the old system.

[Guest]

Looks like there are two distinct types of Juniors we have to find courses for:
(a) Those that like age classes because they are good enough to run in them
(b) Those that don't like age classes because they are new to the sport and can't run at the required standard

So isn't what we need the old Badge event courses for (a) and Colour Coded courses for (b). I like the idea of having only Junior A classes plus colour coded courses at Regional events. No additional work for the Planner as they are really the same course. It's just the child's perception of what they are running.

[Becks]

But then running colour coded still marks you out as being not as "good" as the people running the badge courses, the JW/Ms kind of avoid that stigma.

[Mrs H.]

C'mon Becks, this is competative sport not social services don't you come all cjhild protection on me - with A class and Ageless classes running side by side you have a major incentive to get up the ladder. JAB already said how keen her youngsters were to get up the ladder and my girls are hardly suffering an inferiority complex for having run u classes at the O-ringen.

[Rich]

Equally a newcomer to the sport entering as a 14 year old, will not have the technical ability or possible strength to compete at their age group level.

Don't agree, that would be an Orange (M/W14B). Although challenging they should be able to do this. They will have done some Colour coded events before this so won't be jumping in at the deep end. My first event as a nine year old was orange and did ok.

[Fiona]

Think Mrs H's solution is the best I've heard. Juniors who are newcomers can aim to reach a standard at which they can run competitively in their age class. Colour Coded events are ideal for juniors who are just starting O because they can run at the appropriate standard for them. After that, they could continue to run colour coded courses or O-Ringen style 'U' courses at Regional events until they are ready to run in their 'A' class.

[Becks]

C'mon Becks, this is competative sport not social services don't you come all cjhild protection on me - with A class and Ageless classes running side by side you have a major incentive to get up the ladder. JAB already said how keen her youngsters were to get up the ladder and my girls are hardly suffering an inferiority complex for having run u classes at the O-ringen.

Come on, I'm the last person to cite child protection as a reason to do anything! I may be playing Devil's Advocate here to be fair. It just seems all very much about how we name things. There is very little difference to what the planners will need to plan etc. I personally don't know which system I prefer, I've only ever run in the age class one. But if people's ages are published in ageless classes isn't that pretty much the same as age classes with ageless alongside?