Look im trying to get my head round what you just said and also eat my breakfast at the same time
Im not Mrs H., i can't multi-task
a new approach?
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OK i think ive got you now
So what you're basically saying is what ive just said about using the compass to orientate yourself?
You shouldn't be stopping to move your map, it should always be on north and you turn it automatically
I know a lot of us play CF but thats still no excuse
So what you're basically saying is what ive just said about using the compass to orientate yourself?
You shouldn't be stopping to move your map, it should always be on north and you turn it automatically
I know a lot of us play CF but thats still no excuse
- Peter B
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pretty much - I always look at my map with it oriented to North, which is what I use my compass for (plus orientating it by matching features on the ground to a small extent). That means that every time I bring my hand up to look at the map, I have to adjust it so that it is correctly orientated.
I would just like to point out at this stage that my staying on a straight line ability is not reknowned for its accuracy - it tends to either be good or quite, quite poor. That's down to a lot of reasons, not all associated with the compass...
I would just like to point out at this stage that my staying on a straight line ability is not reknowned for its accuracy - it tends to either be good or quite, quite poor. That's down to a lot of reasons, not all associated with the compass...
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Ed - diehard
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brooner wrote:Ed wrote:even with a Spectra I very rarely use the colours and dots)
does anyone really?
I thought I might when I try it at Croeso as I'll be moving from baseplate to thumb.
Without bearings and pacing, how do you find a pit in an otherwise featureless flat piece of rectilinear East Anglian confierous forest (runnable or otherwise)?
I'm hoping that I'll be able to keep closer contact with the map in Wales since there are contours
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PorkyFatBoy - diehard
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this is a really good debate Ben - well done for starting it. I agree with horses for courses. In Britain for the most part I can run fast (Ha Ha well shuffle briskly) to my attack point and then pace in with a reasonable degree of confidence (remember here that our experiences are relative to our expectations - mine are very humble) On day 1 of the O-Ringen I managined to finish last in my class by trying to apply this technique. because there were too many identical features in too many similar configurations and I came hidiously unstuck and stupidly continued to make the same mistake all the way round the course(In my defence it was a very early start and i had some very unruly children to sort out - so much for the multi-tasking Peter). I should have known better and on day 2 applied the map contact techniques which worked really well and instead of taking an hour longer than the winner I took 15 minutes longer. I find it very difficult to read the map at any thing more than a slight trot (middle-aged eye wobble) and so would waste a lot of time doing this at home. It's a bit like passing your driving test- you have to learn all that stuff and then you can learn to drive. I think you need the tools in the tool box and once you've mastered them you need to be told to feel free to throw away anything you never use.
When i ask young Neville how he found a control he frequently tells me "I just knew it would be there". I would prefer him to give me a more scientific answer showing me on the map what he did - even if the truth was far more instinctive!
When i ask young Neville how he found a control he frequently tells me "I just knew it would be there". I would prefer him to give me a more scientific answer showing me on the map what he did - even if the truth was far more instinctive!
Last edited by Mrs H. on Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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I have a theory that much of this depends on the age at which you took up orienteering. When i try to "shadow" Lilybet we reach mutual frustration very quickly - she cant articulate how she will find a control, (I'll go this way and it will be there....) and despises the notion of pace counting.
Like language acquisition, the earlier you start, the more natural the process. Those of us who come to the sport later need a more analytical approach. Neither are wrong - and even juniors who were orienteering before they could walk might benefit from a bit of grammar, if that's not a metaphor too far!?
Like language acquisition, the earlier you start, the more natural the process. Those of us who come to the sport later need a more analytical approach. Neither are wrong - and even juniors who were orienteering before they could walk might benefit from a bit of grammar, if that's not a metaphor too far!?
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Lumpy Lycra - orange
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Think this is totally possible - even if shadowing Neville was a physical possibility - which it isn't - I'm sure i'd be none the wiser about what he was doing. i've even heard talk of maps becoming 3-D mental pictures - you're right Lumpy - this is a language we're too old to learn - love that picture BTW,
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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Yes, as usual Gross, your total inability to grasp what people are saying is nothing short of breath taking - we are two parents trying to learn from our children and understand exactly why they are so much better than us - actually i never thought of you as shrek - more a cross between Rab c Nesbitt and Victor Meldrew.
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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Serious point -
In order to help someone learn somethng (e.g. help them learn to be a better orienteer):
You DO have to have sufficient knowledge and understanding of what is involved to be able to analyse what they are doing well and what needs to improve
You DO have to be able to explain, motivate, support and provide activities and suggestions that will help them progress
but
You DO NOT have to be as good an orienteer as the people you are coaching.
In fact, the skills of understanding someone else's performance and helping them to improve it are not the same as the skills of performing at a high level - understanding it and doing it are two different things. I think a coach has to be regularly competing and working on improving his/her own performance, but the best coaches are not necessarily the best orienteers - as we have been saying some of the best people simply are not able to explain what they are doing or why they do it - brilliant performers but very hard to learn from.
In order to help someone learn somethng (e.g. help them learn to be a better orienteer):
You DO have to have sufficient knowledge and understanding of what is involved to be able to analyse what they are doing well and what needs to improve
You DO have to be able to explain, motivate, support and provide activities and suggestions that will help them progress
but
You DO NOT have to be as good an orienteer as the people you are coaching.
In fact, the skills of understanding someone else's performance and helping them to improve it are not the same as the skills of performing at a high level - understanding it and doing it are two different things. I think a coach has to be regularly competing and working on improving his/her own performance, but the best coaches are not necessarily the best orienteers - as we have been saying some of the best people simply are not able to explain what they are doing or why they do it - brilliant performers but very hard to learn from.
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chrisecurtis - red
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i never used to use pacing - how boring is that (i'd think); counting your way around a forest? but i'm a recent convert. an orienteer who can't pace is kind of like a tennis player who can't volley. it's not an essential skill perhaps, but it does leave them one-dimensional and vulnerable in certain situations.
it's been mentioned that pacing is handy in areas with few features, but what about when there's loads of map detail? accurate compass and pacing use can guide you straight to the control without the need to slow down and read the map!
or when you're lacking confidence with the scale - pacing can get you into the map and gives you certainty that you're at least in the right ball(control)park.
anyway, it's one of many useful techniques. but map reading is still king. for example there may be 1 or 2 legs on a course where pacing would be part of the optimum technique, but i think it's safe to say that map reading will be needed on all legs.
i'd just like to say well done for getting a coaching section. we really need to get away from the training is cheating mentality.
it's been mentioned that pacing is handy in areas with few features, but what about when there's loads of map detail? accurate compass and pacing use can guide you straight to the control without the need to slow down and read the map!
or when you're lacking confidence with the scale - pacing can get you into the map and gives you certainty that you're at least in the right ball(control)park.
anyway, it's one of many useful techniques. but map reading is still king. for example there may be 1 or 2 legs on a course where pacing would be part of the optimum technique, but i think it's safe to say that map reading will be needed on all legs.
i'd just like to say well done for getting a coaching section. we really need to get away from the training is cheating mentality.
- Guest
after attending to oringen i generaly agree that map contact is the way to go. even if it means slowing ur pace so that u are able to retain map contact at all times ,this means u dont loose masive amounts of time when you get lost on a bearing.
i have never really got into the habbit of using compass and pacing and unless on a very short distance, my bearings normaly turn out to be pants. i feel that you loose alot of concentration while trying to workout paces and agusting that to the terrain type also if you are running along and counting in your head i tend not to pay as much attention to what i am passing as i would normally so when i do get lost the last thing i remember passing often ends up to be quite far away.
there is a much smaller margin for error with map contacts than there is using a bearing.
i have never really got into the habbit of using compass and pacing and unless on a very short distance, my bearings normaly turn out to be pants. i feel that you loose alot of concentration while trying to workout paces and agusting that to the terrain type also if you are running along and counting in your head i tend not to pay as much attention to what i am passing as i would normally so when i do get lost the last thing i remember passing often ends up to be quite far away.
there is a much smaller margin for error with map contacts than there is using a bearing.
- Guest
it depends on the terrain. someone said that already. compass and pacing and attack points style is more important in denmark or czech or somewhere. even here i don't keep total 100% map contact all the time, it's too slow, rough map contact on a bearing across the leg, just on the bigger features. i think actually someone said this already too, so another good point.
you can't say compass isn't important tho. so Pasi doesn't take a compass but some of the time Pasi messes up in ways that if he had had a compass he wouldn't have done. Pasi has said without a compass his map reading is better but he has also said he doesn't take one to increase the challenge. but then Pasi is mental, did you see that picture of him diving head first into a swimming pool with his hands tied behind his back, apparently good "mental strength" training.
maybe he has a point. our coach gervert asked us last week "when is an athlete at their absolute limit?" i said i felt like i was at my total limit handing the map over the thingy to daina at the end of the tio mila run in but he said "no they are only at their absolute limit when they are dangling off a cliff holding onto a tree, about to fall to their death" maybe practising near death experiences will make us stronger, better orienteers. i don't know if that was his point. maybe i didn't understand his swedish right. he reminds me of that coach in karate kid sometimes.
you can't say compass isn't important tho. so Pasi doesn't take a compass but some of the time Pasi messes up in ways that if he had had a compass he wouldn't have done. Pasi has said without a compass his map reading is better but he has also said he doesn't take one to increase the challenge. but then Pasi is mental, did you see that picture of him diving head first into a swimming pool with his hands tied behind his back, apparently good "mental strength" training.
maybe he has a point. our coach gervert asked us last week "when is an athlete at their absolute limit?" i said i felt like i was at my total limit handing the map over the thingy to daina at the end of the tio mila run in but he said "no they are only at their absolute limit when they are dangling off a cliff holding onto a tree, about to fall to their death" maybe practising near death experiences will make us stronger, better orienteers. i don't know if that was his point. maybe i didn't understand his swedish right. he reminds me of that coach in karate kid sometimes.
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harry - addict
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Mrs H you've got me being analytical. Firstly with juniors I believe that the compass can be a comfort tool, I have always given them the option (I'm talking about U10's and older beginners. I however prefer to get them to relate the map to the surroundings. As you are aware Trebor pictures the area and memorises it, he always has done from about six when we first let him have maps.
Now my analysis, I thought I did badly cos I wasn't fit and can't run distances, but I think I use map contact to extremes even in simple areas so rarely run off and pace. I certainly always look for least climb!!!! Unfortunately my theory is not bourne out in complex teerain as I'm still slow, but usually much closer to the leaders. Remember the advice for Graythwaite 1996. Perhaps I'm better at giving advise than following it.
Concentration and Confidence are my pitfalls
Hocolite
Now my analysis, I thought I did badly cos I wasn't fit and can't run distances, but I think I use map contact to extremes even in simple areas so rarely run off and pace. I certainly always look for least climb!!!! Unfortunately my theory is not bourne out in complex teerain as I'm still slow, but usually much closer to the leaders. Remember the advice for Graythwaite 1996. Perhaps I'm better at giving advise than following it.
Concentration and Confidence are my pitfalls
Hocolite
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