The reason I think big events are not sustainable at 2-300 entries is because typically they need 50+ helpers all considered, and a helper:runner ratio of 1:5 just means you’ll soon run out of helpers.
Not to mention cost of mapping and loos not being amortised over enough people.
Where is everyone?
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Re: Where is everyone?
I guess we may be talking about different sorts of events. I imagine that if the numbers doing big events decrease, there would be a simplification requiring less on the day volunteers. The Coast and Islands event is a good illustration - about 200 entries per day I think, there seemed to be just one person at the start, not that many at download or finish. It all seemed to be handled without much fuss. Courses - they did short, medium and long technical courses, plus an orange for the juniors. As a model for the 2050 championship events this might work well - with the addition of a yellow course for younger juniors I imagine. Quality of the actual orienteering was excellent - something I'm sure no-one wants to compromise on.
I don't know if anyone is gathering statistics on attendance at big events or projecting long term trends as the two events mentioned in this thread may not be typical? Maybe the rules of bigger events box organisers in so that they can't easily simplify to adapt to a reduced turnout and Arnold is right? But rules can be changed if this is the case, plenty of time
I don't know if anyone is gathering statistics on attendance at big events or projecting long term trends as the two events mentioned in this thread may not be typical? Maybe the rules of bigger events box organisers in so that they can't easily simplify to adapt to a reduced turnout and Arnold is right? But rules can be changed if this is the case, plenty of time
- SeanC
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Re: Where is everyone?
I think there's a bit of chicken and egg going on. NOR obviously decided that they wouldn't get sufficient entries yesterday to cover the cost of a professional remap. I wonder how many people didn't go because they knew the map wasn't of the best quality?
Masterplan-adventure have the right idea. Concentrate on the quality of the orienteering (map, planning, terrain, etc). Everything else is secondary.
BTW I enjoyed my run around Sandringham yesterday. My first visit since the Midland Champs in 1981 (what's happened to the best bit of the area the other side of main A road?).
However I won't be back unless the map gets brought up to modern standards and/or Wolferton Fen comes back into use.
Masterplan-adventure have the right idea. Concentrate on the quality of the orienteering (map, planning, terrain, etc). Everything else is secondary.
BTW I enjoyed my run around Sandringham yesterday. My first visit since the Midland Champs in 1981 (what's happened to the best bit of the area the other side of main A road?).
However I won't be back unless the map gets brought up to modern standards and/or Wolferton Fen comes back into use.
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Homer - diehard
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Re: Where is everyone?
rf_fozzy wrote:And if you want to attract the 'young' adult demographic,you need to hold events in easy to reach locations.
Which means urbans, parks, sprints etc.
But, as posted elsewhere, this isn't "proper" orienteering of course.
Well, the YHOA fixtures list isn't exactly short of these events over the next few months. I may be missing something, but I'm not seeibg any sort of uptake of these events by young adults, at least in our part of the world. Looking at the first of the YH events, next weekend, there's currently not a single M21 or W21 on the start list. Plenty of older runners, not untypical, for whom urban is noticeably popular
I'm not sure who is solely focusing on juniors. My club certainly does run a series of Family Events throughout the year, but the bulk of our events are targeted at either the full spectrum (terrain, park events etc) or adults (especially Autumn and Winter evening series) which are attracting a steady if small stream of people into orienteering. Effecting the transition into anything other than local (eg relays) is harder though.
On yesterday's Midlands - I can only echo Homer. Sandringham was a lovely area to run through, but I won't be back either until the map is brought up to scratch (drawing and survey) for such an event. However, loved the neighbouring event at Bawsey Country Park today!
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awk - god
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Re: Where is everyone?
Re: Sandringham ... it just shows that you can't rely on entry websites for entry statistics. It turns out that the BUCS entries were submitted manually - there were 100+ young people in attendance. Coach loads from across the UK. It was great to see them all enjoying the event.
600+ entries. 545 finishers. Great assembly/facilities and courses.
600+ entries. 545 finishers. Great assembly/facilities and courses.
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HarryO - orange
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Re: Where is everyone?
HarryO wrote: Great assembly/facilities and courses.
Hmmm. Certainly great assembly and facilities. Courses look fine on paper, but proved rather more 'controversial' in practice.
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awk - god
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Re: Where is everyone?
I am glad my post has stimulated a decent discussion. I was disappointed at the few comments initially, but there has been plenty in the last few days.
I have to say I though both events were excellent, aided in both cases by lovely weather. I just wish more people had attended, to make the time and effort of the organisers more worthwhile.
And yes BUCS did bump up the numbers at Sandringham. Indeed, I was really impressed by the buzz and activity around Assembly on Saturday. It really felt like something big was going on, especially with the various university club groups in their individual huddles. Combining BUCS with other regional championships does look a great idea.
I am sure I should be commenting that the Sandringham map was not up to scratch, but I won't. Seemed perfectly adequate to me.
I have to say I though both events were excellent, aided in both cases by lovely weather. I just wish more people had attended, to make the time and effort of the organisers more worthwhile.
And yes BUCS did bump up the numbers at Sandringham. Indeed, I was really impressed by the buzz and activity around Assembly on Saturday. It really felt like something big was going on, especially with the various university club groups in their individual huddles. Combining BUCS with other regional championships does look a great idea.
I am sure I should be commenting that the Sandringham map was not up to scratch, but I won't. Seemed perfectly adequate to me.
- Alun
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Re: Where is everyone?
awk wrote:Well, the YHOA fixtures list isn't exactly short of these events over the next few months. I may be missing something, but I'm not seeibg any sort of uptake of these events by young adults, at least in our part of the world. Looking at the first of the YH events, next weekend, there's currently not a single M21 or W21 on the start list. Plenty of older runners, not untypical, for whom urban is noticeably popular
I'm not sure who is solely focusing on juniors. My club certainly does run a series of Family Events throughout the year, but the bulk of our events are targeted at either the full spectrum (terrain, park events etc) or adults (especially Autumn and Winter evening series) which are attracting a steady if small stream of people into orienteering. Effecting the transition into anything other than local (eg relays) is harder though.
It has be linked in with a co-ordinated advertising and outreach programme. That's what is missing.
Everything in orienteering is focused at juniors - from BOF central on down to clubs - most have some form of junior development.
I see no coordinated approach to bring young adults and in particular, runners, in to the sport.
We (AIRE) do reasonably well at getting people out to local events and getting young adults to at least try it, but even though many do become members and help, run and volunteer at our own major events, getting them to go wider and do other events is a challenge. But all our efforts are not coordinated and is done by those of us who are also members of running clubs largely. On a club wide basis, we need to do more, but I don't know what the right strategy at that level is - and that's where we need help and resources.
One thing I do do is aim to keep use of the open-o maps at our local events to a few events per year because we have the capacity, areas and mappers to be able to map most of our local events 'properly,' but also because I think it's useful to be able to say to people that if they come to a "proper" event, they're not going to get a map style they've never seen before.
I know that point has put several people off - they were happy with Open-O streetmap style, but the transition to a proper event is too big because it means learning a new map style from scratch.
I'd actually like to see a whole rethink of the structure of orienteering and how it works. I generally think we have too many "big" events (regional and up) and not enough local events - some clubs don't have any at this level I think? But clubs finances are dependent on the bigger events to keep them afloat....
Which is partly why the sport is slowly dying as it ages.
- rf_fozzy
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Re: Where is everyone?
I'd agree with some and question some of this. But on the central point of making the sport more attractive to younger adults absolutely.
Club and regional levels are the place to work on this. BO budget is too small and their professional development officers tend to work on projects funded by government money not normally aligned to these aims.
I think it's worth contacting SLOW to see what they've been doing over the past multiple years as they have had success attracting and retaining this age group. Some of this will be transferrable to other cities like Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham etc.
There are some simple things that could be done and it could just be a matter of clubs or regions agreeing to do this and have volunteers check on progress - such as:
- always having public transport options on event details
- allowing new orienteers to view the map before the race to read and understand the symbols
- event information starting with the assumption that people haven't orienteering before, or much before
- clubs prioritising basic publicity on social media etc
- changing rules on leagues etc which might deter the less active younger orienteers eg messaging that M21s should always run brown or black.
- more score courses at regional events. Score courses are better for adult beginners with variable skill levels who might not want to start on yellow courses aimed at juniors.
etc etc, dozens more ways are possible.
I suspect if the sport was more attractive to younger adult, the result would be an increase in slightly older adults, say M/W 35-50 as this is an easier market and all of the changes would appeal to this group as well. That would be progress though.
Club and regional levels are the place to work on this. BO budget is too small and their professional development officers tend to work on projects funded by government money not normally aligned to these aims.
I think it's worth contacting SLOW to see what they've been doing over the past multiple years as they have had success attracting and retaining this age group. Some of this will be transferrable to other cities like Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham etc.
There are some simple things that could be done and it could just be a matter of clubs or regions agreeing to do this and have volunteers check on progress - such as:
- always having public transport options on event details
- allowing new orienteers to view the map before the race to read and understand the symbols
- event information starting with the assumption that people haven't orienteering before, or much before
- clubs prioritising basic publicity on social media etc
- changing rules on leagues etc which might deter the less active younger orienteers eg messaging that M21s should always run brown or black.
- more score courses at regional events. Score courses are better for adult beginners with variable skill levels who might not want to start on yellow courses aimed at juniors.
etc etc, dozens more ways are possible.
I suspect if the sport was more attractive to younger adult, the result would be an increase in slightly older adults, say M/W 35-50 as this is an easier market and all of the changes would appeal to this group as well. That would be progress though.
- SeanC
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Re: Where is everyone?
A follow up: One of the biggest challenges I've discovered in recruiting, particularly non-runners, is the idea that the event isn't in the same place every week.
That means it's hard to build that connection and habit of people coming along. And I don't know how you do that.
I'm sure we're not alone in that the geographical nature of clubs also makes life difficult at times as we might have 2 events in Leeds which are easy to get to for people in Leeds, then 2 events in Bradford which are easy to get to for people in Bradford. But at 7pm (and I note we start later than some other local events! I've seen some start as early as 6.15 or so which is crazy - hardly anyone finishes at 5 any more!), it can be a challenge for working folk to get across 2 major cities at that time.
We also used to do really well at tieing in our winter score events with a pub and having some kind of social after, but as time has gone on, the older young adults now all have kids so disappear (if they can make the event at all), the cost of living and rise in prices has put people off spending that money and there is a general trend towards not linking the social aspect with the sport (this tends to go with age, but not necessarily - I had a very strong debate with someone who once who could not see the value in the running club I was in encouraging people to stay and socialise after a run and they had a good 15 or so years on me).
There are lots of overlapping issues and I don't have solutions to them. This is where I'd like some focus. Rather than on how we can make our next junior a top 10 WOC runner. Which to be blunt, is meaningless to most people in the sport.
That means it's hard to build that connection and habit of people coming along. And I don't know how you do that.
I'm sure we're not alone in that the geographical nature of clubs also makes life difficult at times as we might have 2 events in Leeds which are easy to get to for people in Leeds, then 2 events in Bradford which are easy to get to for people in Bradford. But at 7pm (and I note we start later than some other local events! I've seen some start as early as 6.15 or so which is crazy - hardly anyone finishes at 5 any more!), it can be a challenge for working folk to get across 2 major cities at that time.
We also used to do really well at tieing in our winter score events with a pub and having some kind of social after, but as time has gone on, the older young adults now all have kids so disappear (if they can make the event at all), the cost of living and rise in prices has put people off spending that money and there is a general trend towards not linking the social aspect with the sport (this tends to go with age, but not necessarily - I had a very strong debate with someone who once who could not see the value in the running club I was in encouraging people to stay and socialise after a run and they had a good 15 or so years on me).
There are lots of overlapping issues and I don't have solutions to them. This is where I'd like some focus. Rather than on how we can make our next junior a top 10 WOC runner. Which to be blunt, is meaningless to most people in the sport.
- rf_fozzy
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Re: Where is everyone?
SeanC wrote:I'd agree with some and question some of this. But on the central point of making the sport more attractive to younger adults absolutely.
Club and regional levels are the place to work on this. BO budget is too small and their professional development officers tend to work on projects funded by government money not normally aligned to these aims.
I think it's worth contacting SLOW to see what they've been doing over the past multiple years as they have had success attracting and retaining this age group. Some of this will be transferrable to other cities like Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham etc.
.....
I suspect if the sport was more attractive to younger adult, the result would be an increase in slightly older adults, say M/W 35-50 as this is an easier market and all of the changes would appeal to this group as well. That would be progress though.
Yep, I'd agree with much of this. I disagree that this cannot be centrally led.
SLOW is an interesting one. I ran some of their mid-week events about 10 years back whilst I was working in London for a bit. They have bits that can be transferred - e.g. the meeting at a pub, but also bits that can't! London is unique in how easy it is to get round. Even in a city like Leeds, the public transport is not reliable enough - just the thought of having to get a bus puts many off.
When we actually got LUUOC to come to some of our midweek events, a bus journey stopped them from attending on numerous occasions. I don't think they even advertise our events on their groups any more. Which is a shame.
- always having public transport options on event details
- allowing new orienteers to view the map before the race to read and understand the symbols
- event information starting with the assumption that people haven't orienteering before, or much before
These things we do - although we could do better.
- clubs prioritising basic publicity on social media etc
This we are trying to do, but this is where more information and resources would be useful. Where, how much, costs, what/who/when to target all that stuff.
- changing rules on leagues etc which might deter the less active younger orienteers eg messaging that M21s should always run brown or black.
I have written before about scrapping little tin-pot leagues for some events - I'm not sure it's helpful. So many event instructions make it look like you've got to slog round a black course if you're an M21. If I'd not been so bloody-minded as a newcomer, I'd have quit, as those courses were *not* suitable for me to learn to orienteer. This is part of the change of structure we need. But a club cannot act on its own - the regional association and gov body have to support too.
- more score courses at regional events. Score courses are better for adult beginners with variable skill levels who might not want to start on yellow courses aimed at juniors.
Interestingly we've tried this. And long oranges aimed at runners. Neither has been particularly successful at attracting people or persuading those who do our Wed events to do Sat events.
- rf_fozzy
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Re: Where is everyone?
Score courses at colour coded events. My humble opinion is that this is a market that needs patience to be built. We've been doing them at all our colour coded local and regional events for a couple of years. Last year maybe 3-5 was a typical number and I suspect many people in my club thought it wasn't worth it and why was I going on about it... but as it wasn't much extra effort people have persisted. But in the last 3 events we've had 10, 15 and 10 so reasonable progress. I think score can be a more difficult concept to sell than colour courses. But over time score courses will fill with those people who would otherwise have got put off by the big jumps in standard of colour coded courses and the off putting 'disqualified' if you can't find them all.
I think the same comments could be applied for post event pubs and meet ups. Mostly now the orienteering market is people who aren't bothered by such things (or get their socalising elsewhere) because if they were they would have gone to a more sociable sport. Building a group of people who want to go orienteering and want to socialise will take time, maybe several years. Club sunday lunch organiser and yorkshire pudding expert? There are worse jobs to volunteer for.
I think the same comments could be applied for post event pubs and meet ups. Mostly now the orienteering market is people who aren't bothered by such things (or get their socalising elsewhere) because if they were they would have gone to a more sociable sport. Building a group of people who want to go orienteering and want to socialise will take time, maybe several years. Club sunday lunch organiser and yorkshire pudding expert? There are worse jobs to volunteer for.
- SeanC
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Re: Where is everyone?
Alun wrote:I am sure I should be commenting that the Sandringham map was not up to scratch, but I won't. Seemed perfectly adequate to me.
Well, for starters, before even getting on to the survey, not even the symbol sizes were consistent: the 1:10,000 map was a mixture of 1:15k and 1:10k symbols.
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awk - god
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Re: Where is everyone?
SeanC wrote:Building a group of people who want to go orienteering and want to socialise will take time, maybe several years. Club sunday lunch organiser and yorkshire pudding expert? There are worse jobs to volunteer for.
We've started identifying a few events a year as 'Claro Capers' - these are events organised by neighbouring clubs where we build in a social element, either a post-race picnic (summer!) pub lunch (winter!) or similar. The idea being to focus on helping bridge the gap between just orienteering at the club's own events and venturing further afield. Early days, but some success it appears.
The score event idea is interesting. That's, after all, the format we use for our autumn/winter evening events which have seen a slowly growing clientele (all adults), so it makes sense to use the same format at the next stage and neatly gets round the problem of excessive times. Certainly the score format has proved very successful for the evening events (and helps with the problem fozzy identifies of not being able to use same/similar areas regularly). I'm not a fan of score events personally beyond the most local event, but then it's not about the likes of me!
I'd agree with much of fozzy says, but i think he underestimates what is going on in quite a few clubs, where there has definitely been a move away from just juniors. It might not be targeted specifically on the area he suggests needs focusing on, young adults, but demographics for clubs are different - what might be best in an conurbation club like Aire might not be so appropriate for others (and it's always going to be difficult to cater for your full range when you cover two cities and a large rural/small town hinterland). The article on the LOC Family Project in the latest Compass Sport indicates another slightly different route. Elsewhere locally, CLOK's Couch to Green programme looks interesting too, as do some of their other initiatives. But I do agree, the emphasis could and perhaps should be shifted further.
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awk - god
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Re: Where is everyone?
Yes, really I see a score course as a missing colour on the colour coded courses, though not necessarily a colour to progress through to get to brown and black.
Looking at the results for the IND M/W 21s and 35s of very nice CLARO event I went to in the autumn at Beecroft (https://www.claro-orienteering.org.uk/wp/beecroft-timble-sunday-24th-sept-2023/) - it illustrates the problem and I think typical of so many colour coded events:
W21 on Orange - 46 mins. OK, that looks fine.
W21 on Short Green - finished in 2 hrs 16 mins
W35 on Blue - retired after 45 mins and 3 controls
W35 on Blue - finished in 3 hrs 12 mins (looks like she was in a group with the other W35 but carried on after the third control).
Nothing wrong with the planning. The area was a bit physical but not extreme.
Well done to them, especially the blue course finisher for admirable determination. But I'm sure many people with these experiences will respond by thinking the sport is too tough for them, unless they were prepared to invest time and money every weekend to practice and go to as many events as possible to reach an expert standard.
Even the 1.9km 'very short green' might offer up long times, retirements and the feeling of failure.
Sure, this is just 4 people at one event, but if each event can persuade 4 new people to go orienteering and come back next time, then it soon becomes 20/30/40 people in a few years.
If these people could be steered onto a score course (unless they really wanted a 3 hour challenge) then they all take an hour or so and would all come away happy and with the feeling of success since it would be 'found 3' not 'retired' or 'disqualified', or 'that was well beyond my physical comfort zone'. Score it is a course people can come back to one or twice a year if this is what they want to do if that's how it fits with their lives. And as it's much more like 'sport for all' there is more chance of these newbies inviting more friends next time ... which also solves the sociability problem for these people.
Looking at the results for the IND M/W 21s and 35s of very nice CLARO event I went to in the autumn at Beecroft (https://www.claro-orienteering.org.uk/wp/beecroft-timble-sunday-24th-sept-2023/) - it illustrates the problem and I think typical of so many colour coded events:
W21 on Orange - 46 mins. OK, that looks fine.
W21 on Short Green - finished in 2 hrs 16 mins
W35 on Blue - retired after 45 mins and 3 controls
W35 on Blue - finished in 3 hrs 12 mins (looks like she was in a group with the other W35 but carried on after the third control).
Nothing wrong with the planning. The area was a bit physical but not extreme.
Well done to them, especially the blue course finisher for admirable determination. But I'm sure many people with these experiences will respond by thinking the sport is too tough for them, unless they were prepared to invest time and money every weekend to practice and go to as many events as possible to reach an expert standard.
Even the 1.9km 'very short green' might offer up long times, retirements and the feeling of failure.
Sure, this is just 4 people at one event, but if each event can persuade 4 new people to go orienteering and come back next time, then it soon becomes 20/30/40 people in a few years.
If these people could be steered onto a score course (unless they really wanted a 3 hour challenge) then they all take an hour or so and would all come away happy and with the feeling of success since it would be 'found 3' not 'retired' or 'disqualified', or 'that was well beyond my physical comfort zone'. Score it is a course people can come back to one or twice a year if this is what they want to do if that's how it fits with their lives. And as it's much more like 'sport for all' there is more chance of these newbies inviting more friends next time ... which also solves the sociability problem for these people.
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