I think you are massively underselling it.
Even for open age classes it would be a nightmare. Because as soon as you don't do age classes, more people enter the number on the open classes. 36 entries - that's a joke guess right?. We get more Open class entries than that now for bsoc. Plus 18 and 20s on top....
And then the rather vocal M60 group would (quite rightly) ask why they are being discriminated against and not having one for them.
Even for a British version, you'd need a version of quarantine as we did at BSOC this year (which some people failed to respect). And that's incredibly complicated.
Plus an area where you can hold 4 (even short) traffic free sprints isn't easy. For a WOC type experience, you'd want to avoid overlap where possible.
And youve still got all the same issues with allocstions, protests etc. All in short times. Which is the big problem with bsoc.
But if you want it, then you are welcome to organise. Out your money where your keyboard is.
Personally, I think anyone with any sense wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.
British Sprints
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Re: British Sprints
rf_fozzy wrote:I think you are massively underselling it.
Even for open age classes it would be a nightmare. Because as soon as you don't do age classes, more people enter the number on the open classes. 36 entries - that's a joke guess right?. We get more Open class entries than that now for bsoc. Plus 18 and 20s on top....
Absolutuley everyone would enter the open classes. They would all enter parallel heats of the same length in order to qualify for the KO stage.
So that means a simplification of the event at the heat stage.
It is not 36 entries - it is 36 qualifiers for the KO stage. This is no different to the existing format where the fact that 18 qualify for the final doesn't limit the number of entries to 18.
And then the rather vocal M60 group would (quite rightly) ask why they are being discriminated against and not having one for them.
They would enter the open KO sprint just like everybody else - though the chances of them qualifying would be slim. There are no age classes with sufficient numbers to populate a KO sprint so it really is a non issue.
Even for a British version, you'd need a version of quarantine as we did at BSOC this year (which some people failed to respect). And that's incredibly complicated.
Why?
We don't quarantine at national championships for any discipline - even relays where the incentive for collusion is greatest.
Another non-issue.
Plus an area where you can hold 4 (even short) traffic free sprints isn't easy. For a WOC type experience, you'd want to avoid overlap where possible.
There would be 3: QF/SF/F; the heats would be the day before. They are much shorter and start and finish in the arena so the extent of terrain needed would be much smaller. Another advantage of putting the heats the day before (in addition to taking the time pressure off the results team) is that you then don't need an area large enough to support two non overlapping 4km courses.
So a feature that would make the event easier to organise.
And youve still got all the same issues with allocstions, protests etc. All in short times. Which is the big problem with bsoc.
If the heats are the day before that takes the the time pressure off generating the start lists. And once you are allocated to a quarter final you know which semi - just like the Champions League or Wimbledon.
Again this would make the organisation simpler.
- pete.owens
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Re: British Sprints
I'll look forward to you discovering all the problems highlighted above when you organise it next year then.
What date will it be please?
What date will it be please?
- rf_fozzy
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Re: British Sprints
I thought about starting a new thread but...
graeme in 2022 wrote:Far too much hanging around, plus its very stressful for the organisers to get the start list up on time (witness many failures in the past).
IMO, the only reason to have a qualifier is if you've too many entrants for the start list - but with 5-year age groups that's not the case. I think its now clear that people regard one 15 minute race as too little entertainment for one day (even WOC doesn't do that any more), so two races - total time or am sprint pm relay is the way to go.
Last edited by graeme on Mon May 08, 2023 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: British Sprints
graeme wrote:I thought about starting a new thread but...graeme wrote:Far too much hanging around, plus its very stressful for the organisers to get the start list up on time (witness many failures in the past).
IMO, the only reason to have a qualifier is if you've too many entrants for the start list - but with 5-year age groups that's not the case. I think its now clear that people regard one 15 minute race as too little entertainment for one day (even WOC doesn't do that any more), so two races - total time or am sprint pm relay is the way to go.
Does BO have any standard software to compute the start lists for the finals, and if not, why? After all, the task is the same every year (but perhaps for different allocations of classes to courses), and having an automated, tried and tested, solution should make the task far simpler and quicker.
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Re: British Sprints
graeme wrote:I thought about starting a new thread but...graeme wrote:Far too much hanging around, plus its very stressful for the organisers to get the start list up on time (witness many failures in the past).
IMO, the only reason to have a qualifier is if you've too many entrants for the start list - but with 5-year age groups that's not the case. I think its now clear that people regard one 15 minute race as too little entertainment for one day (even WOC doesn't do that any more), so two races - total time or am sprint pm relay is the way to go.
Or indeed am Sprint, pm Urban middle.
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Re: British Sprints
For anyone who wasn't there.
The Armagh sprint was excellent. The first race around the observatory was extremely tricky, lots of traps and cut throughs to spot, controls sited to turn you round to facing the wrong way for exit. There was a section of dead running to get back to the arena finish, which I assume was why they didn't use this bit for the final. Also, a timed out road crossing, and some collision risk may not be ideal for a final when second counts, compared with a qualifier where a few seconds here and there don't matter? The organisers mitigated this s bit by getting permission to take down a piece of fence, saving another couple of 100m of deadness.
Anyone who did careful preparation for the race will have been confused by the walk through muddy fields to a farmyard start. The final location, St. Luke's Hospital, was kept impressively secret. It provided a standard campus race which prioritised fairness in the final over technical difficulty in the qualifier.
I thought the event showed tremendous vision from the organisers. If I hadn't been thoroughly useless myself, I'd would have really enjoyed it!
The Armagh sprint was excellent. The first race around the observatory was extremely tricky, lots of traps and cut throughs to spot, controls sited to turn you round to facing the wrong way for exit. There was a section of dead running to get back to the arena finish, which I assume was why they didn't use this bit for the final. Also, a timed out road crossing, and some collision risk may not be ideal for a final when second counts, compared with a qualifier where a few seconds here and there don't matter? The organisers mitigated this s bit by getting permission to take down a piece of fence, saving another couple of 100m of deadness.
Anyone who did careful preparation for the race will have been confused by the walk through muddy fields to a farmyard start. The final location, St. Luke's Hospital, was kept impressively secret. It provided a standard campus race which prioritised fairness in the final over technical difficulty in the qualifier.
I thought the event showed tremendous vision from the organisers. If I hadn't been thoroughly useless myself, I'd would have really enjoyed it!
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Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: British Sprints
DaveR wrote: Or indeed am Sprint, pm Urban middle.
c/f Kirkintilloch, Jedburgh, Falkirk ...
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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Re: British Sprints
graeme wrote:For anyone who wasn't there.
The Armagh sprint was excellent. The first race around the observatory was extremely tricky, lots of traps and cut throughs to spot, controls sited to turn you round to facing the wrong way for exit. There was a section of dead running to get back to the arena finish, which I assume was why they didn't use this bit for the final. Also, a timed out road crossing, and some collision risk may not be ideal for a final when second counts, compared with a qualifier where a few seconds here and there don't matter? The organisers mitigated this s bit by getting permission to take down a piece of fence, saving another couple of 100m of deadness.
Anyone who did careful preparation for the race will have been confused by the walk through muddy fields to a farmyard start. The final location, St. Luke's Hospital, was kept impressively secret. It provided a standard campus race which prioritised fairness in the final over technical difficulty in the qualifier.
I thought the event showed tremendous vision from the organisers. If I hadn't been thoroughly useless myself, I'd would have really enjoyed it!
I agree completely; good courses and two somewhat different areas with no overlap at all. I'll look forward to seeing the routegadget; control 178 in the qualifier seemed to give problems on a few courses although not the one I ran, and it will be interesting to why.
As you say, they kept the location of the finals a closely guarded secret, although I know of one person who thought they'd worked out where the start was going to be from the information about the layout (I don't know whether they were right, though!).
- roadrunner
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Re: British Sprints
Echo everything that has been said about the quality of the Northern Ireland weekend. Some really good orienteering and even the Middle Race forest wasn’t as rough as I had feared.
The sprints, in particular, were top notch but I agree with comments about the two race format. Far too long a delay and I’m not really sure what having two races achieves. None of the classes are big enough to need qualifiers and I would much prefer a single race with potentially a later start time to make public transport more viable.
As long as the sprint is part of a weekend, then I don’t see a problem with having only one race on the Saturday. Much easier for everyone!
The sprints, in particular, were top notch but I agree with comments about the two race format. Far too long a delay and I’m not really sure what having two races achieves. None of the classes are big enough to need qualifiers and I would much prefer a single race with potentially a later start time to make public transport more viable.
As long as the sprint is part of a weekend, then I don’t see a problem with having only one race on the Saturday. Much easier for everyone!
- mikey
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Re: British Sprints
Three great events indeed. Three excellent areas and all very well-planned. It must have taken an enormous amount of time and effort to get permissions and to ensure all those gates were unlocked.... a wonderful weekend and well done to all concerned.
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Re: British Sprints
A brilliant weekend - As yted says, 3 really well planned courses on 3 good areas; worthy of British champs.
On the sprint format/delays. There is no doubt that the delay was horribly excessive: exactly 5 hours to the minute in my case between finishing the qualifier and starting the final. However, before condemning the format (used for the first time here), I would suggest we need to find out and understand why it happened. It SHOULD have been slicker and quicker than the 3-heat system, but here it wasn't. So what happened, other than the very silly situation where a second half hour delay was brought in because somebody forgot to make sure the start team had start list? With the greatest respect to NIOA, was this a small organisation overstretched at a critical point? Until we know that, any conclusion is far too hasty.
That's not to say the 1-race format shouldn't be used (I usually do better then!), just that I don't think we should be jumping to conclusions.
One other area to think about: I remain mystified at map scales. Why on earth was it only over-60s who got enlarged map scales (better than last year admittedly, where as an M60 I couldn't read the map at a couple of critical moments but fortunately guessed right both times)? It's recognised that M/W45+ at Long need an enlargement, so why not at Sprint, where the detail is often even tighter (just look at the first controls in the qualifiers!). To me, this is a major flaw in the rules, that enlargements are not required, just an option.
On the sprint format/delays. There is no doubt that the delay was horribly excessive: exactly 5 hours to the minute in my case between finishing the qualifier and starting the final. However, before condemning the format (used for the first time here), I would suggest we need to find out and understand why it happened. It SHOULD have been slicker and quicker than the 3-heat system, but here it wasn't. So what happened, other than the very silly situation where a second half hour delay was brought in because somebody forgot to make sure the start team had start list? With the greatest respect to NIOA, was this a small organisation overstretched at a critical point? Until we know that, any conclusion is far too hasty.
That's not to say the 1-race format shouldn't be used (I usually do better then!), just that I don't think we should be jumping to conclusions.
One other area to think about: I remain mystified at map scales. Why on earth was it only over-60s who got enlarged map scales (better than last year admittedly, where as an M60 I couldn't read the map at a couple of critical moments but fortunately guessed right both times)? It's recognised that M/W45+ at Long need an enlargement, so why not at Sprint, where the detail is often even tighter (just look at the first controls in the qualifiers!). To me, this is a major flaw in the rules, that enlargements are not required, just an option.
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awk - god
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Re: British Sprints
At the SE Sprints in June*, there will be 2 races with the second one starting exactly 90 minutes after the first one. So no excessive hanging around.
Mind you the winner is the one with the best combined time, which makes that format possible.
Still, I for one would no longer consider attending the British Sprints as they are today, as I just don't want to spend my entire day to do 2x 15 minute races.
* which I'm planning in SW London, it'll be ace, do enter!
Mind you the winner is the one with the best combined time, which makes that format possible.
Still, I for one would no longer consider attending the British Sprints as they are today, as I just don't want to spend my entire day to do 2x 15 minute races.
* which I'm planning in SW London, it'll be ace, do enter!
- Arnold
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Re: British Sprints
I agree with all the comment regarding the terrain and planning - it was excellent, and a real challenge, particularly the first half of the heat. None of the below are massive issues but just points for discussion - the wait time issue however is a issue that needs addressing, as others have said
Personally I felt the early stages of the heat, while excellent on paper, was simply too tight & congested terrain to set 6 (?) people off per minute. I had head on collisions with 3 people before the road crossing and narrowly avoided others. Probably had 3 in total in the last 5 years. Nobodies fault, everyone is focussing on their own race but hope there weren't any serious collisions.
I'll be interested to hear the explanation of the road saga, highly unfortunate, I think the solution just about worked but you could have challenged the fairness of it in the final perhaps.
I thought the steps at the end of the qualifier were lethal and could see slip marks on them, hope no one was hurt. As a controller I wouldn't have been too happy with them.
It makes travelling to Northern Ireland a bit more worthwhile! A long way to go to run 1 x 15 min race even if not in Ulster. 2 races, of whatever format are far more attractive. Providing there isn't a 5-hour wait!
I'm pretty sure some of the classes do need a qualifier when numbers are a bit higher than they were this time round?
Me too. Having seen the 1:3000 map, which was immeasurably clearer, why should the event be an eyesight test? You could argue the map was toodetailed, but I consider myself usually to have vision of sufficient quality to read 1:4000 with no issues, but I couldn't see a way through to 140 thanks to the start triangle blocking the route, I couldn't see any steps in the circle at 175 in the heat until I looked very closely afterwards, and I misread the retaining wall at 168 as a fence. Don't think any would have been an issue at 1:3000.
Finally, 2 people reached over the wall to punch #167 in the heat while I took a legal route there. I did report this at download. Perils of SIAC, or poor controlling?
Personally I felt the early stages of the heat, while excellent on paper, was simply too tight & congested terrain to set 6 (?) people off per minute. I had head on collisions with 3 people before the road crossing and narrowly avoided others. Probably had 3 in total in the last 5 years. Nobodies fault, everyone is focussing on their own race but hope there weren't any serious collisions.
I'll be interested to hear the explanation of the road saga, highly unfortunate, I think the solution just about worked but you could have challenged the fairness of it in the final perhaps.
I thought the steps at the end of the qualifier were lethal and could see slip marks on them, hope no one was hurt. As a controller I wouldn't have been too happy with them.
mikey wrote: I’m not really sure what having two races achieves. None of the classes are big enough to need qualifiers and I would much prefer a single race with potentially a later start time to make public transport more viable.
It makes travelling to Northern Ireland a bit more worthwhile! A long way to go to run 1 x 15 min race even if not in Ulster. 2 races, of whatever format are far more attractive. Providing there isn't a 5-hour wait!
I'm pretty sure some of the classes do need a qualifier when numbers are a bit higher than they were this time round?
awk wrote: I remain mystified at map scales.
Me too. Having seen the 1:3000 map, which was immeasurably clearer, why should the event be an eyesight test? You could argue the map was toodetailed, but I consider myself usually to have vision of sufficient quality to read 1:4000 with no issues, but I couldn't see a way through to 140 thanks to the start triangle blocking the route, I couldn't see any steps in the circle at 175 in the heat until I looked very closely afterwards, and I misread the retaining wall at 168 as a fence. Don't think any would have been an issue at 1:3000.
Finally, 2 people reached over the wall to punch #167 in the heat while I took a legal route there. I did report this at download. Perils of SIAC, or poor controlling?
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Re: British Sprints
Arnold wrote:At the SE Sprints in June*, there will be 2 races with the second one starting exactly 90 minutes after the first one. So no excessive hanging around. Mind you the winner is the one with the best combined time, which makes that format possible.
But that's not sprint - it's almost middle distance with an interval. You don't decide the winner of the 100m by running 2x100m races and adding the times together; nor do you decide Long or Short Championships by adding the results of 2 races together. Sadly, the YH sprints this year are using the same format.
I like the way Ebor organised the YH sprints a couple of years ago: the first race was the Championship race, and then they ran a second sprint race, the two times of which added together formed a round of the YH Urban league.
Last edited by awk on Tue May 09, 2023 4:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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