Age profile
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Age profile
People have often commented that orienteering is an ageing sport, with more competitors in the veteran age groups than the senior ones. Well, we're not alone; I was surprised to read in the minutes of my running club's AGM that the average age of its members is about 49! Admittedly it doesn't have junior members (the youngest is 17), but I still find that surprising: what sports are attracting the younger adults, I wonder.
- roadrunner
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Re: Age profile
100% agree we have an "ageing profile" but my feeling is things are actually getting a bit better rather than worse after a nadir around 10 years ago.
I think perhaps down to the growth of urban orienteering which seems to be more attractive to younger competitors, This is certainly reflected in SLOW's winter Street O' series where average age seems to be early 20's! but perhaps that ha ssomething to do with the pub finish !
I think perhaps down to the growth of urban orienteering which seems to be more attractive to younger competitors, This is certainly reflected in SLOW's winter Street O' series where average age seems to be early 20's! but perhaps that ha ssomething to do with the pub finish !
- DaveL
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Re: Age profile
roadrunner wrote:what sports are attracting the younger adults, I wonder.
eSports.
But being less flippant, other sports do manage to have a higher "attractiveness" to younger people (although that usually due to accessibility and visibility), they still mostly all have an ageing demographic too.
For the simple reason that the UK population as a whole has an ageing demographic.
There are other reasons too.
We can have another complete discussion about why orienteering doesn't attract younger adults and the like (which has been done several times on this forum in recent memory), but until the sport changes to become more accessible - both physically and demographically, it's never going to attract that many juniors from outside "traditional" routes (e.g. the middle class orienteering family route).
But quite a few of the changes that would see the sport grow are likely to be unpopular with at least large segments of the current orienteering population.
So we're a bit stuck.
- rf_fozzy
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Re: Age profile
I know we've had this conversation before, but hey, why not again. We go back to the same orienteering areas again and again
Personally I don't think orienteering needs a revolution, at least at local level, just a bit of evolution.
- Add easy to plan and accessible score courses to all events level D and C (and probably level B).
- Clubs invest much more of their volunteer effort at publicity, aiming at the 'something age adults and families'. My experience people age 25-60 are the easiest to attract - that would be lowering the demographic.
- Clubs invest much more of their volunteer effort with 'onboarding' - a mixture of coaching and opportunities to mix with new orienteers who are too casual to want to be formally coached - eg monthly zoom calls, meet up at pubs after events etc).
Some clubs might need to focus more on local events or look at what they do, but most have a decent offering. I do see these approaches bringing new younger people in to nearby clubs.
Personally I don't think orienteering needs a revolution, at least at local level, just a bit of evolution.
- Add easy to plan and accessible score courses to all events level D and C (and probably level B).
- Clubs invest much more of their volunteer effort at publicity, aiming at the 'something age adults and families'. My experience people age 25-60 are the easiest to attract - that would be lowering the demographic.
- Clubs invest much more of their volunteer effort with 'onboarding' - a mixture of coaching and opportunities to mix with new orienteers who are too casual to want to be formally coached - eg monthly zoom calls, meet up at pubs after events etc).
Some clubs might need to focus more on local events or look at what they do, but most have a decent offering. I do see these approaches bringing new younger people in to nearby clubs.
- SeanC
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Re: Age profile
Yes, those are good steps, but...
1. We are frequently told that volunteers are overstretched (too few doing too much) - which is the excuse (yes, I mean excuse) that some clubs use for not allowing even limited EOD now. So these actions would thus necessarily require less effort elsewhere.
I'm in favour of fewer, but higher quality big events and more local and training events, but some would be upset if they didn't get to drive 100km+ to do an orienteering event every weekend...
2. It would mean shifting the focus of orienteering development away from the purely junior based focus we have now. That would also be unpopular amongst some segments.
3. I'd like to see more score events - I think they're perfect for attracting the 18-45 demographic because of the social element you can include, especially if you can do mass starts, but it's been noted on here that some really hate score events because they're seen as not "pure" enough. Hence this will upset some too.
4. All this will cost money. And whilst some clubs will be able to afford it, others won't and it needs some form of structure and guidance from BOF and they probably don't have the funds to support this kind of refocusing either.
Interesting comment I had this morning (and gets to part of where I come at this problem from) was to put yourself in a place where orienteering does not exist in the UK. What model do you design for the sport? What structures do we need?
1. We are frequently told that volunteers are overstretched (too few doing too much) - which is the excuse (yes, I mean excuse) that some clubs use for not allowing even limited EOD now. So these actions would thus necessarily require less effort elsewhere.
I'm in favour of fewer, but higher quality big events and more local and training events, but some would be upset if they didn't get to drive 100km+ to do an orienteering event every weekend...
2. It would mean shifting the focus of orienteering development away from the purely junior based focus we have now. That would also be unpopular amongst some segments.
3. I'd like to see more score events - I think they're perfect for attracting the 18-45 demographic because of the social element you can include, especially if you can do mass starts, but it's been noted on here that some really hate score events because they're seen as not "pure" enough. Hence this will upset some too.
4. All this will cost money. And whilst some clubs will be able to afford it, others won't and it needs some form of structure and guidance from BOF and they probably don't have the funds to support this kind of refocusing either.
Interesting comment I had this morning (and gets to part of where I come at this problem from) was to put yourself in a place where orienteering does not exist in the UK. What model do you design for the sport? What structures do we need?
- rf_fozzy
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Re: Age profile
I'd like to see more score events - I think they're perfect for attracting the 18-45 demographic because of the social element you can include, especially if you can do mass starts, but it's been noted on here that some really hate score events because they're seen as not "pure" enough. Hence this will upset some too.
Is it time we had a British Score Champs?
The Scottish Score Champs has been going for years. It's a while since I did one, but IIRC there was one map and set of controls (different score values), and three different time lengths for the various age groups. Something for everyone and always great fun.
Score events may not be to everyone's taste, but neither is night orienteering or sprints, and they have British Champs. It might give score events a bit more status.
- Karen
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Re: Age profile
I was surprised to read in the minutes of my running club's AGM that the average age of its members is about 49! Admittedly it doesn't have junior members (the youngest is 17), but I still find that surprising: what sports are attracting the younger adults, I wonder.
There are two different questions. Which sports are attracting younger people and which sports attract people to join a club. There's lot of young people running, whether park run, 5k, 10k, 1/2 marathons, ultras etc or just running for fun. The issue is that doesn't translate to joining a club.
Clubs need to be a bit more honest about why that is. Are they perceived as cliques? Are they offering anything in return for your membership? Are the focussed on competitions? Do they communicate in ways that work for under 30s (email is not the default for those people - and certainly not long news letters)? If you don't have good junior activities are the parents going to drop out (times have changed and adult athletics - a sport dominated by men - can no longer assume that "hubby" can just go for a run whenever he wants and leave "wife" to look after the kids). Generalising a lot but pre-children phase the "members" are likely to have transport issues - does the club solve that or just assume everyone can get to events etc. Successful clubs are often full of really good people does that put off people who are poorer? Does joining a club land you with more volunteering than running? Are the "best" volunteering roles shared amongst that same people whilst manning the car park is given to newbies? When people share their perceptions do clubs learn or dismiss them as being poorly informed (people's perceptions may be incorrect but they are what you need to overcome)?
These problems are not unique to running sports. There's a massive growth in cycling. Mountain biking is the "new golf" and yet there isn't a massive growth in MTB club membership. Road cycling has also never been so popular and people will happily pay £40+ to ride a Sportif, but not pay 1/2 that to join the local club.
It may be a mistake to assume that club membership demographics reflects on participation demographics. If they don't match then the sport needs to work out how it will sustain itself without the club volunteer force.
- Atomic
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Re: Age profile
Karen wrote:Is it time we had a British Score Champs?
I think so. But:
It did have a hiatus for a while and has not attracted massive numbers even pre-covid. Realistically 90% of the people running it are the same people who run at SOLs etc.The Scottish Score Champs has been going for years.
I am a huge score fan (despite being rubbish at it). I do think they have a role to play in the sport but I'm not convinced it's the magic bullet for the demographic issue or attracting new people. its another complication to throw at people who are trying to understand the sport. However if people want more Score events - ask your club committees if YOU can organise a score event. I think what would actually boost their status would be a league arrangement like UKOL/SOL/SoSOL etc. Perhaps regional rather than national. I know some clubs have their own Score series, but why not get each club in the region to designate one of their local events as a Score and accumulate the total points over the whole season?
- Atomic
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Re: Age profile
Just FYI our club do offer EOD at most events. There's roughly 2-3% of entries come on the day. On the one hand its not a big workload on the day - but it does mean we are making unnecessary map waste if we don't want to turn people away. On the other, it doesn't feel like this is the problem you perceive. Anecdotally the "walk up on the day" to "club regular" conversion rate is much lower than the "signed up in advance beginner" to "club regular".1. We are frequently told that volunteers are overstretched (too few doing too much) - which is the excuse (yes, I mean excuse) that some clubs use for not allowing even limited EOD now. So these actions would thus necessarily require less effort elsewhere.
to me the question is what is "higher quality" for an event? in general though I think what you describe is the model used by the larger, more successful clubs in the UK. That seems to support your argument but getting from your local club doing 10 local events / training workshops a year to say 26 is a massive undertaking. it may be that smaller geographically close clubs need to consider either merging or at least working very cooperatively to achieve this.I'm in favour of fewer, but higher quality big events and more local and training events, but some would be upset if they didn't get to drive 100km+ to do an orienteering event every weekend...
many clubs don't just do junior development. Why would people be upset at that?It would mean shifting the focus of orienteering development away from the purely junior based focus we have now. That would also be unpopular amongst some segments.
lots of orienteers don't like social! they enjoy running out of sight of others and don't want mass starts. I would not assume that score has to equal mass start. Equally if you want mass start/social then plan some easy "park relays" and find a way for your orienteering members to be incentivised to drag a couple of non-orienteering friends along in a team.I'd like to see more score events - I think they're perfect for attracting the 18-45 demographic because of the social element you can include, especially if you can do mass starts,
call them a Rogaine and they'll be fine! Seriously though - you don't have to go to every orienteering event within 50 km of your house so why does it matter if someone organises a format you don't like.but it's been noted on here that some really hate score events because they're seen as not "pure" enough. Hence this will upset some too.
if BOF don't have the resource to address the sustainability issue in the sport orienteering deserves to die out. BOF's income is largely from membership and participation levies. Since levies are the same for all event levels the local event scene must be a big part of that too. Nothing you have described is actually particularly cash intensive.4. All this will cost money. And whilst some clubs will be able to afford it, others won't and it needs some form of structure and guidance from BOF and they probably don't have the funds to support this kind of refocusing either.
What you have missed is if you want 30-somethings - one of the biggest and easiest pools of people is schools. You still end up with the same white middle class demographic, but those parents run around after their kids like idiots. BUT this is where there is a big mess - there is little immediate gain for a club running O sessions in the local school. Our club might expose 30-60 kids a year to orienteering and get 2 new junior runners if we are lucky, and then maybe one of those becomes a new "orienteering family". To get big numbers you need a much more cohesive strategy with multiple sessions over a prolonged period, you need "coaches" who are free to go into schools during the normal working week, you need the right structures to support teachers etc. That is a long slow burn which probably requires cash. And if we want anything other than the stereotypical middle-class families we need to address the travel to events - whether that's clubs organising minibuses (a real benefit of being in a club) or organisers running shuttle busses to good public transport, or making rules of urban event series that they must be located/timed well for public transport etc.
- Atomic
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Re: Age profile
At least some juniors do get exposure to at least 1 score event a year - as far as I am aware there is still a British Schools Score Champs each Autumn.
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Re: Age profile
Atomic, you make some good points, but also there's some crossed-comments too.
Don't have time to reply properly today, but will do so tomorrow.
Re: the point about British Score Champs. OK. But.
We already have:
British Long Champs
British Middle Champs
British Sprint Champs
British Relay Champs
British mixed sprint relay champs
British Night champs
British Schools champs
British Schools Score
JK Sprint
JK Middle
JK Long
JK Relays
UKOL
UKEL
UKUL
A number of "regional" (sorry I'm including Scottish national things here -sorry, sorry sorry)- both urban and terrain leagues
A number of club leagues.
Plus of course "high-profile" events like S6(5?)D, Lakes 5 Day etc
So, there simply is too much overlapping stuff. If you want high quality and probably more importantly financial sustainabiluty, we need to combine some of these or get rid of some of these. Especially if you want to add more.
For example, couldn't the JK middle also be the british middle champs? Same for longs? And relays? Or am I missing something?
Don't have time to reply properly today, but will do so tomorrow.
Re: the point about British Score Champs. OK. But.
We already have:
British Long Champs
British Middle Champs
British Sprint Champs
British Relay Champs
British mixed sprint relay champs
British Night champs
British Schools champs
British Schools Score
JK Sprint
JK Middle
JK Long
JK Relays
UKOL
UKEL
UKUL
A number of "regional" (sorry I'm including Scottish national things here -sorry, sorry sorry)- both urban and terrain leagues
A number of club leagues.
Plus of course "high-profile" events like S6(5?)D, Lakes 5 Day etc
So, there simply is too much overlapping stuff. If you want high quality and probably more importantly financial sustainabiluty, we need to combine some of these or get rid of some of these. Especially if you want to add more.
For example, couldn't the JK middle also be the british middle champs? Same for longs? And relays? Or am I missing something?
- rf_fozzy
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Re: Age profile
Restructuring these big events might be a good idea.
But I actually think the biggest problem with the JK is that for that long ideal weekend for going orienteering, there is almost no other orienteering anywhere else in the country. It's an ideal time for new people to start orienteering with less competition from other sports than there is in high summer, but it's a few degrees warmer than Jan/Feb.
I do despair when I hear the words "That weekend clashes with the " <insert far away event JK/S6D/British etc>
Not everyone goes to the JK. Clubs need to be brave and put on events on the same weekend for those that don't. A simple score event in a country park is a good format as it's easier to plan and organise for the inexperienced volunteers (assuming the experienced planners and organsers are likely at the JK) and ideal for new orienteers to do. It's not a clash because it's a different market.
But I actually think the biggest problem with the JK is that for that long ideal weekend for going orienteering, there is almost no other orienteering anywhere else in the country. It's an ideal time for new people to start orienteering with less competition from other sports than there is in high summer, but it's a few degrees warmer than Jan/Feb.
I do despair when I hear the words "That weekend clashes with the " <insert far away event JK/S6D/British etc>
Not everyone goes to the JK. Clubs need to be brave and put on events on the same weekend for those that don't. A simple score event in a country park is a good format as it's easier to plan and organise for the inexperienced volunteers (assuming the experienced planners and organsers are likely at the JK) and ideal for new orienteers to do. It's not a clash because it's a different market.
- SeanC
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Re: Age profile
You forgot the British Trail Orienteering Champs!
That still makes just 7 "open" British Champs.
I really just thought a score champs might give the format a bit more status, raise more interest, if we want more score events in general.
That still makes just 7 "open" British Champs.
I really just thought a score champs might give the format a bit more status, raise more interest, if we want more score events in general.
- Karen
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Re: Age profile
I agree - although some of the most likely volunteers will be unavailable, but we have a band of volunteers in our club who no longer travel that far or physically aren't able to do 3 days of O in a row who would be ideal to run an event the same weekend as the JK.Not everyone goes to the JK. Clubs need to be brave and put on events on the same weekend for those that don't.
I've planned a few score events and I'm not sure they are easier to plan. A good score needs more than just throwing 30 controls at the map - and you can do more with a small space (= less distance for control hangers/collectors to cover) if you dictate the route.A simple score event in a country park is a good format as it's easier to plan and organise
I 100% agree. It would be like not having a park run on the day of the London Marathon / Great North Run etc.It's not a clash because it's a different market.
- Atomic
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Re: Age profile
rf_fozzy wrote:So, there simply is too much overlapping stuff. If you want high quality and probably more importantly financial sustainabiluty, we need to combine some of these or get rid of some of these. Especially if you want to add more.
For example, couldn't the JK middle also be the british middle champs? Same for longs? And relays? Or am I missing something?
Yes you are probably right there is too much overlap. I suspect if you take the top 5 for the British Middle, British Long, JK Middle, JK Long there is a lot of overlap between the same people in all of them? From your list the obvious question to me is are the Middle/Long courses consistently won by different people - if not do we need different champions? BUT are these events not the big money makers so no need to get rid of them?
Adding another one with a slightly different skill set, probably appealing to a different target audience, and with a bit of thought about what else you can run the same weekend and you might grow the number of people taking part in big events rather than be fighting over the same people. If weekends are really a problem then the Harvester seems to be really struggling - should it block a weekend then get cancelled every year? Could it be more sustainable if it ran every 2 years and another event ran in the off years (like Welsh 5/Scottish 6?). Do British Champs need to be every year - if worlds can swap sprint / forest why not nationals?
- Atomic
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