Are there any details published about next years British Sprint and Middle events? Neither BOF or the organisers are giving much away this year unless I've missed it. Is that because there isn't much to shout about?
Personally I tend to look at the details of the event (venues, technical challenge, etc) rather than the status. I'd be unlikely to commit to the travel and entry fees without knowing more about what's on offer.
British Sprint & Middle Champs 2023
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British Sprint & Middle Champs 2023
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buzz - addict
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Re: British Sprint & Middle Champs 2023
The latest BO newletter confirmed the event will not be affected by the coronation clash.
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HarryO - orange
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Re: British Sprint & Middle Champs 2023
Still 6 months to go, but the NIOA page says Sprint in Armagh (which looks potentially interesting on Google Maps) and Middle in Drumkeeragh Forest tbc (for which I can't find a map). A rareish opportunity to get BOF medals in NI!
- Arnold
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Re: British Sprint & Middle Champs 2023
I'd forgotten about the BOF embargoes page which also suggests Drumkeeragh Forest for the Middle Distance. Looks like 2 sq km coniferous plantation on undulating hills just north of Slieve Croob (JK 2011). Apparently it hosted the first ever orienteering event in Northern Ireland although it doesn't appear to have been used recently.
Armagh looks good for the sprint with castles, technical old town and bits of park although perhaps a bit limited for juniors. There are a few old maps online.
So if you like a technical Middle the jury's out, but if you're into old town sprint then it looks worth the trip.
Hopefully a bit more info on the Middle Distance will be forthcoming shortly.
Armagh looks good for the sprint with castles, technical old town and bits of park although perhaps a bit limited for juniors. There are a few old maps online.
So if you like a technical Middle the jury's out, but if you're into old town sprint then it looks worth the trip.
Hopefully a bit more info on the Middle Distance will be forthcoming shortly.
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buzz - addict
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Re: British Sprint & Middle Champs 2023
Does anyone know the approximate timings for the sprint finals, please; I can only find those for the heats on the website. It would be useful to know the latest time the finals might finish in order to plan travel (i.e. is it possible to fly back that night).
- roadrunner
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Re: British Sprint & Middle Champs 2023
I won't go this year. The reason being transport and accommodation too difficult as the location is so remote, far away from any big cities with only scarce two-hourly buses reaching there.
I'll head to Helsinki to do WRE on the same weekend.
I'll head to Helsinki to do WRE on the same weekend.
- miklcct
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Re: British Sprint & Middle Champs 2023
I’m considering going to the Sprints but the current rules and information are really making it quite tricky to reach an informed decision.
On the website it says the starts of the heats are 10.30-12.15 (tbc) and there is no information about timings for the finals. Then new BO rules say ‘there must be at least 2 hours between the last finisher of the heats and the first starter of the finals’ (which seems crazy long to me) so assuming a 1 hour course closing time (1.15) finals would be something like 3.15-4.30 although ‘the A finals should be held on their own’ so theoretically it could be even later.
All of which means we all need to be there from something like 10am to 5pm, which is somewhat of an investment of time for 2x15 minute races.
Would it not be more sensible to have a single sprint race in the morning and the sprint relays in the afternoon, or vice versa, to make the whole thing a little more compact?
On the website it says the starts of the heats are 10.30-12.15 (tbc) and there is no information about timings for the finals. Then new BO rules say ‘there must be at least 2 hours between the last finisher of the heats and the first starter of the finals’ (which seems crazy long to me) so assuming a 1 hour course closing time (1.15) finals would be something like 3.15-4.30 although ‘the A finals should be held on their own’ so theoretically it could be even later.
All of which means we all need to be there from something like 10am to 5pm, which is somewhat of an investment of time for 2x15 minute races.
Would it not be more sensible to have a single sprint race in the morning and the sprint relays in the afternoon, or vice versa, to make the whole thing a little more compact?
- Arnold
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Re: British Sprint & Middle Champs 2023
Arnold wrote:Would it not be more sensible to have a single sprint race in the morning and the sprint relays in the afternoon, or vice versa, to make the whole thing a little more compact?
I'm not sure why organising an individual event and a relay event would make that day
more compact than organising (effectively) two individual events. Especially when many people (not including me) don't want to run relays, and where others' clubs can't provide competitive teams for all their members wanting to run.
Surely the answer is somewhere in streamlining the individual event a bit - and I'm not talking about losing the 2 stages. Whilst 7 hours would be somewhat excessive I agree, I'm not averse to investing some (if fewer!) hours in 2 x 15m races. The JK format for sprint is OK, but personally I do prefer the qualifier/final format used in the British (although I'd rather have the JK format than a 2-race format adding times together which is sometimes used).
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awk - god
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Re: British Sprint & Middle Champs 2023
Arnold wrote:‘there must be at least 2 hours between the last finisher of the heats and the first starter of the finals’ (which seems crazy long to me)
Trust me when I say it really isn't a lot of time.
In that slot between the last finisher and the first starter in the finals, you have to (this list is non-exhaustive):
1. Allow all later Q starters a reasonable time in which to finish (min 30mins, max 45min from last start...)
2. Remove any controls from Q that might interfere in F
3. Hang any F controls that can't be hung early (visiblity/run-ins/cross-over terrain)
4. Controller must check all sites
5. F start must be set up (likely to involve packing up at least some Q start stuff and transporting)
6. Ensure all controls are awake for contactless punching
7. Allow min 20mins for any protests
8. Deal with any protests (min 20mins)
9. Produce start lists (10mins)
10. Allow a reasonable warm up time (~10-15min min).
11. If WRE, you probably want pre-runners on Elite courses...
And that all assumes everything works. If like we did at Leeds Uni, something causes an issue, then that 2hrs isn't sufficient and starts must be delayed as we had to (not my fault!).
Of course on some areas, it's going to be fairly straightforward, but on others it's tight. Even if you've only got 1, 7, 8, 9, 10 to deal with you're looking at 45+20+20+10+15 = 1hr 30 minimum between last Q starter and first F starter.
And I tell you from experience that 1hr 30 is not enough time, even if everything works as it should.
- rf_fozzy
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Re: British Sprint & Middle Champs 2023
awk wrote: Especially when many people (not including me) don't want to run relays, and where others' clubs can't provide competitive teams for all their members wanting to run.
Don't get why people don't want to run relays. They're often the most fun. It's about the team. And that's always fun.
When I was running well, my favourite events of the year were always the relays: Bradford Millennium Way and Washburn valley relays were particular highlights.
The thing about clubs not getting enough members to run for me is about simplifying the relays (i.e. fewer classes - look at BRC: 4 Women's Premier, but 21 Women's short) so that it's easier to fit people into teams and also somehow allowing (non-competitive?) composite teams that can be entered at shorter notice (and not into the silly ad-hoc thing)
I accept it's an extra hassle for the organising team, but there must be a way to do it with minimal fuss.
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Re: British Sprint & Middle Champs 2023
rf_fozzy wrote:The thing about clubs not getting enough members to run for me is about simplifying the relays (i.e. fewer classes - look at BRC: 4 Women's Premier, but 21 Women's short) so that it's easier to fit people into teams
But both those classes have exactly the same entry restrictions. They are open to all women.
and also somehow allowing (non-competitive?) composite teams that can be entered at shorter notice (and not into the silly ad-hoc thing)
But the ad hoc class is the most inclusive of all - it allows any combination of runners and has legs suitable for different technical and physical abilities.
So if BOF were to take up your suggestion of simplification by reducing the number of classes (presumably the short and ad hoc) then that would make it more difficult for clubs to put together teams. The entire reason for those classes is to make it easier for clubs to put together teams with a mixture of ages and abilities.
- pete.owens
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Re: British Sprint & Middle Champs 2023
pete.owens wrote:rf_fozzy wrote:The thing about clubs not getting enough members to run for me is about simplifying the relays (i.e. fewer classes - look at BRC: 4 Women's Premier, but 21 Women's short) so that it's easier to fit people into teams
But both those classes have exactly the same entry restrictions. They are open to all women. Some of those teams running the short course would be out for rather a long time if they had to enter the premier class.and also somehow allowing (non-competitive?) composite teams that can be entered at shorter notice (and not into the silly ad-hoc thing)
But the ad hoc class is the most inclusive of all - it allows any combination of runners and has legs suitable for different technical and physical abilities.
So if BOF were to take up your suggestion of simplification by reducing the number of classes (presumably the short and ad hoc) then that would make it more difficult for clubs to put together teams. The entire reason for those classes is to make it easier for clubs to put together teams with a mixture of ages and abilities.
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Re: British Sprint & Middle Champs 2023
pete.owens wrote:But both those classes have exactly the same entry restrictions. They are open to all women.
Yes. Precisely the point. Let's have one course instead of two! Same with Mens Open and Mens Short. The legs are supposed to be ~middle distance length, so we're not talking about people having to do 16km/500m courses.
It would increase the competition element to have more teams on a course
But the ad hoc class is the most inclusive of all - it allows any combination of runners and has legs suitable for different technical and physical abilities.
Well it's not really. You just have 2 short green legs and an orange. It's a bit meaningless and people end up dumped on it because the other categories don't fit whoever's left over. I've done the ad-hoc twice and it was just not really fun as it was a bit pointless.
So if BOF were to take up your suggestion of simplification by reducing the number of classes (presumably the short and ad hoc) then that would make it more difficult for clubs to put together teams. The entire reason for those classes is to make it easier for clubs to put together teams with a mixture of ages and abilities.
Nope, in an ideal world, I'd totally restructure the whole event. Apart from the junior relays, I'd have ~3 (maybe 4 depending on numbers) senior courses max. And I'd simplify the vets categories to simply Vets (O40), SuperVets (O55), UltraVets (O65) and HyperVets (O75+).
On course 1, you'd have your Open, Women's, M/WO40s championships
Course 2 would be M/WO55
Course 3* would be M/W065 (probably combined with a U18)
Course 4 would be M/W075 (probably combined with a U16)
Course 5 would be U14 and of a simpler technical standard.
*this is the one I am unsure if you actually need
Clubs could then simply enter a team onto a course and make up with whomever and if it fits a category, they're eligible for a prize.
Basically put the championship onto the event structure rather than the other way round which is what orienteering does.
Essentially it's the obsession with age based competition (see the silly idea in CS that all events are age based this month! Ridiculous and counterproductive!) that is the problem with most of what orienteering does.
We need to broadly forget age based competition, design our events and then have the age stuff sit on top. Instead we always work the other way round.
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Re: British Sprint & Middle Champs 2023
rf_fozzy wrote:pete.owens wrote:But both those classes have exactly the same entry restrictions. They are open to all women.
Yes. Precisely the point. Let's have one course instead of two! Same with Mens Open and Mens Short. The legs are supposed to be ~middle distance length, so we're not talking about people having to do 16km/500m courses.
It would increase the competition element to have more teams on a course
No it would reduce the competition element by excluding teams who do not want to spend that long. As you pointed out, far more teams were up for the women's short course than the womens premier. If they had wanted to enter the premier they could have - all you are advocating is reducing the choices available to competitors thus making it harder for club captains to assemble teams.
Yes, it is a middle distance length for W21, but open teams may consist women of any ages. So what may take 32 minutes for the to elite W21 will take much much longer for an average W75. With teams having to complete three consecutive laps, it is important for courses to be sufficiently short for the event to be over in a reasonable period of time.
As you point out the British Relays had 4 teams (actually 5) on the womens premier and 21 on the women's short. All your proposal would result in is 5 teams running the womens premier and 63 women going home on Saturday. Actually there might be even fewer entries since you also propose that the women should run the same course as the men (22% further).
- pete.owens
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Re: British Sprint & Middle Champs 2023
rf_fozzy wrote:pete.owens wrote:But the ad hoc class is the most inclusive of all - it allows any combination of runners and has legs suitable for different technical and physical abilities.
Well it's not really. You just have 2 short green legs and an orange. It's a bit meaningless and people end up dumped on it because the other categories don't fit whoever's left over. I've done the ad-hoc twice and it was just not really fun as it was a bit pointless.
It is not at all pointless if you want to put together teams of mixed ability. Say a family team of M45, W50 and M12. Or if the club has 4 juniors and 5 seniors that want a run. Maybe it is not the course you would personally choose to run (despite choosing to run it twice!), but it is the single most popular class.
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