Just seen the invitation to the Cup/Trophy for 2023.
Suggested venue for YHOA clubs heat is Beanley, near Alnwick. That's 120 miles and 2 1/2 hrs driving from Harrogate, the centre of the closest YHOA club.
I love this competition but that's a complete non-starter.
The rules on Trophy eligibility haven't changed either, so that's stuffed most small clubs anyway, and left the competition as hopelessly unbalanced as it was this year.
Compass Sport Cup 2023
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Re: Compass Sport Cup 2023
Doing a quick look back through the results listed on the BO site, what seems to happen is that, presumably because NEOA has only 3 open clubs, NEOA doesn't normally have its own CSC heat. On years when there is a YHOA CSC heat, there is no NEOA heat and visa versa, with the majority of years being YHOA. 2023 is a NEOA year and (again presumably) it must be NATO's turn to organise... who will use one of their good areas the one near Alnwick.
Does this means that the long suffering orienteers living in Alnwick enjoy a 2 1/2 hour drive to the CSC most years?
Possibly the regions are not ideally designed, and for the north of England, a 'Dales northward' region comprising the NEOA clubs plus the 4 Cumbrian clubs would probably make more sense. Then there could be an 'M62' region of YHOA clubs, Manchester area clubs and DEE, possibly east and west.
No-one would want the hassle of reconfiguring these administrative bodies, but CSC might be able to define its own 'regions' flexibly changing based on club populations.
For many peripheral clubs long drives to the heats must be the norm. What's it like for KERNO, INVOC or SBOC? The clubs in the middle normally get the luxury of moderate drives. Peripheral clubs might benefit from an extra round playing one or two local clubs.
Does this means that the long suffering orienteers living in Alnwick enjoy a 2 1/2 hour drive to the CSC most years?
Possibly the regions are not ideally designed, and for the north of England, a 'Dales northward' region comprising the NEOA clubs plus the 4 Cumbrian clubs would probably make more sense. Then there could be an 'M62' region of YHOA clubs, Manchester area clubs and DEE, possibly east and west.
No-one would want the hassle of reconfiguring these administrative bodies, but CSC might be able to define its own 'regions' flexibly changing based on club populations.
For many peripheral clubs long drives to the heats must be the norm. What's it like for KERNO, INVOC or SBOC? The clubs in the middle normally get the luxury of moderate drives. Peripheral clubs might benefit from an extra round playing one or two local clubs.
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Re: Compass Sport Cup 2023
awk wrote:The rules on Trophy eligibility haven't changed either, so that's stuffed most small clubs anyway, and left the competition as hopelessly unbalanced as it was this year.
Not necessarily disagreeing with you, since they do say they're not doing anything to encourage participation...
CSC invitation wrote:There will be no changes to the number of scorers to encourage recruitment and participation
... but can you explain in what sense the competition is "hopelessly unbalanced"?
I think the venue is indeed "suggested" for YHOA, not required: you can go where you like. Beanley is closer to Edinburgh than the SOA heat...
Can't remember INVOC ever getting a top-team for the qualifier. The final is often completely inaccessible for them, and I suspect they do us the courtesy of not taking someone else's place.
Last edited by graeme on Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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graeme - god
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Re: Compass Sport Cup 2023
It might be better to abandon the idea of heats being associated with specific regions and instead try to disperse them nationally, with clubs invited to the nearest heat rather than one that might be at the far end of their regional association.
For DEE it is common for 1 or 2 heats in Yorkshire E/W midlands or Wales to be significantly closer than a heat in the lake district. Sometimes we have a choice of 3 heats all over 2 hours drive away. Sometimes there might be two heats within half an hour of each other. On one occasion when we were hosting the NW heat, the WM heat was so close that you could see one venue from the other.
For DEE it is common for 1 or 2 heats in Yorkshire E/W midlands or Wales to be significantly closer than a heat in the lake district. Sometimes we have a choice of 3 heats all over 2 hours drive away. Sometimes there might be two heats within half an hour of each other. On one occasion when we were hosting the NW heat, the WM heat was so close that you could see one venue from the other.
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Re: Compass Sport Cup 2023
For me, way the rules are constructed to reward clubs who can put the most runners out. So when your club is on the small side (in whichever category you are in), then you are unlikely to win as other clubs can put more runners out.
So the net effect is that people don't travel to support their club, because it doesn't matter, distorting things further. Clearly clubs with better orienteers can theoretically score better, but that doesn't seem to work in practice.
So the net effect is that people don't travel to support their club, because it doesn't matter, distorting things further. Clearly clubs with better orienteers can theoretically score better, but that doesn't seem to work in practice.
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Re: Compass Sport Cup 2023
For me, way the rules are constructed to reward clubs who can put the most runners out. So when your club is on the small side (in whichever category you are in), then you are unlikely to win as other clubs can put more runners out.
I can see what you are saying - but its not just a total numbers game, its breadth across all the classes. Its difficult to argue that for an interclub competition a club that manages to have reasonably good people run in every demographic shouldn't do better than a club with one or two stars but many categories unrepresented.
Oh? do people only go to the CSC if they think they have a realistic prospect of winning? To what extent is the winner of the CSC a measure of the best orienteers v's the best (organised) club? And should it be? Afterall there are lots of other competitions for determining the best orienteer and even team of orienteers... what makes the CS Cup or Trophy different?So the net effect is that people don't travel to support their club, because it doesn't matter, distorting things further. Clearly clubs with better orienteers can theoretically score better, but that doesn't seem to work in practice.
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Re: Compass Sport Cup 2023
I more meant about the team winning overall, if I thought I could contribute to the overall win, then I would be more likely to turn out for my club. But if I have a sneaky suspicion that we’ll be in the bottom half of the table, and would be scraping together a team, plus have to drive over two hours to get there, then maybe I would pass on it…
Last edited by Excelman on Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Compass Sport Cup 2023
SeanC wrote:For many peripheral clubs long drives to the heats must be the norm. What's it like for KERNO, INVOC or SBOC? The clubs in the middle normally get the luxury of moderate drives. Peripheral clubs might benefit from an extra round playing one or two local clubs.
KERNO managed a pretty good turn out for last year's qualifier in the Quantocks (and it would have been even better if it wasn't for the horrendous weather).
Next year we have the choice of the New Forest or South Wales, either of which is a 3h30m drive from Truro. As club captain, I'll do my best, but I suspect it will be diehards only and I'm not sure whether we'll manage a full counting team.
Equally, I'm not sure we can reasonably demand a more south-westerly qualifier every year solely for the benefit of us, DEVON and QO, not least I imagine we would quickly tire of hosting between us. Having a venue that is relatively close to the M5 can make a difference, but ultimately we just have to be grateful to whichever club is willing to take on the burden of organising.
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Scott - god
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Re: Compass Sport Cup 2023
Excelman - interesting the different perspectives. I'm a not outstanding orienteer in a big club. I'll never score points that count towards the overall club score, its unlikely that my presence even pushes anyone else's final score down. Would I travel the country to bask in other's glory? perhaps, but in reality, I only travelled long distances when I really want to go to some good orienteering. If the area / course etc is good enough my contribution to the club effort and the travel time is largely irrelevant. If the area is uninspiring and inconvenient I've nothing to gain from spending hours in the car even although my club are likely to make the podium.
On the other hand, if I was in a small not very amazing club I might actually be their 3rd best M45. Those points might actually count in the overall scores. That sounds like it would be motivating for me to travel to an event where my run actually has an impact - even if that means my club come 5th rather than 6th.
Now if the CSC want to make it really attractive to travel the inevitably long distance to the final I'd think they:
- consider if October (weather, daylight etc) is really a good time of year for that?
- ask if the final should always be part of a bigger "weekend"? In which case should the results be combined from both days? Should it possibly be on a bank holiday weekend?
- find ways for clubs that didn't qualify to still take part in a major UK event -- eg. if it is not already too complex with a cup and trophy perhaps there could be a third category where a club that hasn't qualified can send up to 10 people in total and score only their best runner in each class; that would provide a route for very small clubs or larger clubs with only minority interest in the CSC to amplify their involvement in future years.
- explore if the organisation could include a package that provides accommodation (e.g. based on University campuses) to make the club's job easier to get involved. Major headache to do - but is a big headache for one person better than smaller headaches for 20?
Now whether they do the same for the CSC Qualifiers would be an interesting question. The distance complained about in the OP is not really that far in my view - people in Scotand make that time/cost/effort regularly for orienteering events within the Scottish Leagues -- if the qualifiers for supposedly the most prestigious inter-club competition in the UK aren't worth the effort something more fundamental is wrong; its OK if you've reached an age/interest level where a long day trip for a run in the woods is not for you - but don't dismiss the competition for those who still are motivated. I wonder if we really need qualifiers? Are they there to whittle the field down to a manageable size, or to provide each region with good events and/or an income stream? are they a burden or a bonus for the organising club? The fact that defending champions and final host clubs automatically qualify and still go to their qualifiers tells me that they aren't really a burden on the participants who most enjoy the CSC.
Another possibility is that the calendar is now getting so crowded that the CSC could consider running qualifier one year and final the next. Would a long travel be more acceptable if it is a rarer event? or does it diminish the "brand" of the CSC and it becomes less important?
On the other hand, if I was in a small not very amazing club I might actually be their 3rd best M45. Those points might actually count in the overall scores. That sounds like it would be motivating for me to travel to an event where my run actually has an impact - even if that means my club come 5th rather than 6th.
Now if the CSC want to make it really attractive to travel the inevitably long distance to the final I'd think they:
- consider if October (weather, daylight etc) is really a good time of year for that?
- ask if the final should always be part of a bigger "weekend"? In which case should the results be combined from both days? Should it possibly be on a bank holiday weekend?
- find ways for clubs that didn't qualify to still take part in a major UK event -- eg. if it is not already too complex with a cup and trophy perhaps there could be a third category where a club that hasn't qualified can send up to 10 people in total and score only their best runner in each class; that would provide a route for very small clubs or larger clubs with only minority interest in the CSC to amplify their involvement in future years.
- explore if the organisation could include a package that provides accommodation (e.g. based on University campuses) to make the club's job easier to get involved. Major headache to do - but is a big headache for one person better than smaller headaches for 20?
Now whether they do the same for the CSC Qualifiers would be an interesting question. The distance complained about in the OP is not really that far in my view - people in Scotand make that time/cost/effort regularly for orienteering events within the Scottish Leagues -- if the qualifiers for supposedly the most prestigious inter-club competition in the UK aren't worth the effort something more fundamental is wrong; its OK if you've reached an age/interest level where a long day trip for a run in the woods is not for you - but don't dismiss the competition for those who still are motivated. I wonder if we really need qualifiers? Are they there to whittle the field down to a manageable size, or to provide each region with good events and/or an income stream? are they a burden or a bonus for the organising club? The fact that defending champions and final host clubs automatically qualify and still go to their qualifiers tells me that they aren't really a burden on the participants who most enjoy the CSC.
Another possibility is that the calendar is now getting so crowded that the CSC could consider running qualifier one year and final the next. Would a long travel be more acceptable if it is a rarer event? or does it diminish the "brand" of the CSC and it becomes less important?
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Re: Compass Sport Cup 2023
I'm not a big fan of relays, so the CSC is my only real opportunity to feel part of a team event, and to that extent I enjoy the regional round whether I run well or not, or whether the team qualifies or not.
Personally, I'd like to see the competition flipped, so the heats are in autumn and the final in spring, the final is going to be the first technical terrain event I've done for several months, although I get that the spring part of the year is already very busy.
Could you combine the qualifiers with a championships instead, so say the Yorkshire qualifier is either the Yorkshire&Humber championship or the Northern championship? Might be difficult to align all those events nationally though, and could get a bit repetative.
Personally, I'd like to see the competition flipped, so the heats are in autumn and the final in spring, the final is going to be the first technical terrain event I've done for several months, although I get that the spring part of the year is already very busy.
Could you combine the qualifiers with a championships instead, so say the Yorkshire qualifier is either the Yorkshire&Humber championship or the Northern championship? Might be difficult to align all those events nationally though, and could get a bit repetative.
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Re: Compass Sport Cup 2023
One challenge with flipping qualifier to Autumn and Final to Sprint is those who will change designated course between qualifier and final.
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Re: Compass Sport Cup 2023
You couldn't combine a CSC heat with an individual championship because the course you would run at an individual championship is likely to be different to the course you would run for your club at the heat. Also if you held the Northern Champs at the Yorkshire CSC heat then club captains of NW clubs would have difficulty recruiting teams.
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Re: Compass Sport Cup 2023
King Penguin wrote:One challenge with flipping qualifier to Autumn and Final to Sprint is those who will change designated course between qualifier and final.
Well you'd have to stick to whichever course you ran in the heat. Or just suck it up, it is what it is! Leagues that run through the winter seem to manage fine with people changing category half way through.
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Re: Compass Sport Cup 2023
pete.owens wrote:You couldn't combine a CSC heat with an individual championship because the course you would run at an individual championship is likely to be different to the course you would run for your club at the heat.
At the risk of making this a boring forum, I know none of this will happen! On the other hand, "couldn't" isn't right, is it? Would require some change on both sides probably. Main issue on first glance being 5 year age categories at regional champs. Get rid of M35 for a start.
pete.owens wrote:Also if you held the Northern Champs at the Yorkshire CSC heat then club captains of NW clubs would have difficulty recruiting teams.
Don't follow this logic I'm afraid. (Although I was more suggesting the other way round, as you mention above.)
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Re: Compass Sport Cup 2023
One thing that is good, and quite different, about the CSC, is that it is an 'active' club competition. What I mean by active is that clubs (captains) have to enter a team, and say who's going etc. This is more likely to encourage a team atmosphere, club spirit, individual orienteers interested in what others are doing. Qualifying for a final is a big part of that.
There are passive club competitions like many regional club leagues where clubs and competitors are entered automatically to the club competition and people go as individuals, less interested or unaware of the club competition. I fear this would be the fate of the CSC if combined with other competitions like the Northern Championships.
I've been to CSC heats where the results are secondary to the club day out, with everyone in a big tent eating food together afterwards. Obviously Covid has put a stop to this, but hopefully this will start again next year.
The other thoughts are about incomplete teams and predictability. I know people are lesslikely to travel if they think their club can't make a full team as this gives them no chance, which must be a bit chicken and egg. And if the competition is very predicable then this would demotivate many. It's motivating to know your club has some chance, even if fairly small. I can't see a nice summary of CSC results for heats over the past few years to see if this is the case.
There are passive club competitions like many regional club leagues where clubs and competitors are entered automatically to the club competition and people go as individuals, less interested or unaware of the club competition. I fear this would be the fate of the CSC if combined with other competitions like the Northern Championships.
I've been to CSC heats where the results are secondary to the club day out, with everyone in a big tent eating food together afterwards. Obviously Covid has put a stop to this, but hopefully this will start again next year.
The other thoughts are about incomplete teams and predictability. I know people are lesslikely to travel if they think their club can't make a full team as this gives them no chance, which must be a bit chicken and egg. And if the competition is very predicable then this would demotivate many. It's motivating to know your club has some chance, even if fairly small. I can't see a nice summary of CSC results for heats over the past few years to see if this is the case.
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