Our national/regional events must have quite a bit of environmental impact, with all those cars travelling long distances.
Of course fuel and car costs are now much greater, and as car sharing isn't a big part of orienteering culture, and public transport is often challenging, there are limited options for those that need to keep the costs down.
So how about making entries free or a nominal fee and charging a large car parking fee? Ie the reverse of the '£1 in a bucket' car parking fee approach. With a large car parking fee this gives a real incentive for clubs to organise car sharing, and with less cars travelling, finding a suitable car park will be easier. For example a regional event currently charging £10 entry fee + £1 in a bucket car parking fee and assuming a current average of 2 competitors per car, instead:
£0.50 entry fee.
£20 car parking fee.
Has anyone tried such an approach?
£20 car parking fee
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Re: £20 car parking fee
WMOC?
We paid 160 Euro entry fee plus 45 Euro for a bus pass.
We enquired about a parking permit because one of our party had picked up an injury. They were available but at a cost of 300 Euro. Admittedly that covers the 4 days where there were bus transfers but it was sufficient to deter us from driving.
Unfortunately it could also be the reason half of us now have Covid
We paid 160 Euro entry fee plus 45 Euro for a bus pass.
We enquired about a parking permit because one of our party had picked up an injury. They were available but at a cost of 300 Euro. Admittedly that covers the 4 days where there were bus transfers but it was sufficient to deter us from driving.
Unfortunately it could also be the reason half of us now have Covid
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Homer - diehard
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Re: £20 car parking fee
£0.50 entry fee.
£20 car parking fee.
£0.00 for parking on the side of the road somewhere not too far away and annoying all the locals to the extent that we never get permission to orienteer there again.
- SJC
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Re: £20 car parking fee
SeanC wrote:public transport is often challenging,
Often because we make it particularly so.
Even for urban events.
Exhibit A: British Sprint Championships in Skelmersdale, walkable from a station.
First starts *before* the first trains arrive (from anywhere).
It was a fight to move the starts back this year to allow people to get the train if they wanted. I did eventually win, but this should have been non-controversial and indeed one of the first thoughts for me.
Of course, next years British sprint and middle championships is a challenge of a different making....
- rf_fozzy
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Re: £20 car parking fee
SJC wrote:£0.50 entry fee.
£20 car parking fee.
£0.00 for parking on the side of the road somewhere not too far away and annoying all the locals to the extent that we never get permission to orienteer there again.
That's one risk. Another is that, if the policy is successful in achieving its stated objective, you could end up drastically reducing income and risking financial viability. Set the charges on the basis on 2 people per car, and see four people per car halve the event income.
That said, I wholeheartedly agree with the premise. The challenge is identifying a model that achieves the desired outcome, without creating different issues.
How about a high entry fee with free parking? Then anyone arriving in a multi-occupancy car gets a ticket on arrival entitling them to a partial refund. Anyone arriving on public transport shows their ticket to get the same or greater refund. This would mean no incentive to park around the corner and walk in (multi-occupancy cars have the incentive to park in the designated parking to receive a partial refund; single occupancy cars have no benefit parking off-site, so no disincentive to use the designated parking). There would be an incentive to car-share as much as possible.
There might be a few attempts by some single-occupancy drivers to meet off site and use one car to enter the designated parking- though coordination of this would require some effort, and hopefully limited to small enough numbers to be able to identify perpetrators and respond accordingly.
The biggest challenge would be the administration resource required for issuing partial refunds, given that most regional events are predominantly pre-entry. And the possible negative effect that an increased headline fee would have on entry numbers, regardless of the potential partial refund.
It's not easy finding a workable solution. But I fully agree with the view that one needs to be found.
- spitalfields
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Re: £20 car parking fee
I've long been an advocate for this but it has been difficult to implement... car owners are very obsessive about cheap/free parking. Covid made this worse of course. But something needs to be done. Has any club tried or better still achieved a reduction in car use at its events anywhere in the world?
- yted
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Re: £20 car parking fee
Personally I think orienteers are usually pretty reasonable and if in the event details it says "Please don't annoy those in Lower Piddleswick by parking in their village or we might lose permissions next time" most or all will obey.
Refunds - that adds more work, one of the reasons I don't like the £1 in a bucket approach.
Yes - this is exactly the behaviour we want to encourage. Using a regional event in the Lake District and orienteers travelling from Manchester as an example, so the first time this happens, some members meet up in say Kendal for the final few miles of car sharing. That's multiple new car sharers. Next time they will think 'that was fun last time, and we saved money, so why don't we meet up in Bolton for the final 50 miles?'* Orienteers of one club are normally quite spread out, and often in suburban areas, with the best way to meet up by car!
*depending on who you share with
Refunds - that adds more work, one of the reasons I don't like the £1 in a bucket approach.
spitalfields wrote:There might be a few attempts by some single-occupancy drivers to meet off site and use one car to enter the designated parking
Yes - this is exactly the behaviour we want to encourage. Using a regional event in the Lake District and orienteers travelling from Manchester as an example, so the first time this happens, some members meet up in say Kendal for the final few miles of car sharing. That's multiple new car sharers. Next time they will think 'that was fun last time, and we saved money, so why don't we meet up in Bolton for the final 50 miles?'* Orienteers of one club are normally quite spread out, and often in suburban areas, with the best way to meet up by car!
*depending on who you share with
- SeanC
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Re: £20 car parking fee
We've had this discussion at least twice before, but I've not seen much, if any change, in the way events are planned/organised over the last ten years.
Take next Sunday's DVO urban at Belper.
Due to the deficiencies of our rail system, trains arrive at 1010 or 1208.
The start window is of course, 1030 to 1200.
Making the 1010 train means I have to drive to Leeds or Wakefield to get the first train to Derby to change, so I might as well spend another hour in bed and drive.
When I commented it was a shame public transport hadn't been considered (absolutely no mention in the event details at all, assuming everyone drives), the response was 'Belper is on the bus route between Derby and Matlock and there's a railway station too'.
If public transport had been considered, it'd be on the event page, and the start window would finish at 12.30. But it clearly hasn't been.
EPOC event on Saturday - again, no mention at all of how to arrive on public transport but it's clearly possible.
Sunday event - "25 min walk or 10 min cycle from Huddersfield station." Fine, but quite a long walk - is there a bus? (Yes, there is)
It's poor.
Yes not every event will be suitable for public transport but if we can't promote it when it is a clearly viable option, is there any point discussing it?
Take next Sunday's DVO urban at Belper.
Due to the deficiencies of our rail system, trains arrive at 1010 or 1208.
The start window is of course, 1030 to 1200.
Making the 1010 train means I have to drive to Leeds or Wakefield to get the first train to Derby to change, so I might as well spend another hour in bed and drive.
When I commented it was a shame public transport hadn't been considered (absolutely no mention in the event details at all, assuming everyone drives), the response was 'Belper is on the bus route between Derby and Matlock and there's a railway station too'.
If public transport had been considered, it'd be on the event page, and the start window would finish at 12.30. But it clearly hasn't been.
EPOC event on Saturday - again, no mention at all of how to arrive on public transport but it's clearly possible.
Sunday event - "25 min walk or 10 min cycle from Huddersfield station." Fine, but quite a long walk - is there a bus? (Yes, there is)
It's poor.
Yes not every event will be suitable for public transport but if we can't promote it when it is a clearly viable option, is there any point discussing it?
- Len
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Re: £20 car parking fee
SeanC wrote:Personally I think orienteers are usually pretty reasonable and if in the event details it says "Please don't annoy those in Lower Piddleswick by parking in their village or we might lose permissions next time" most or all will obey.
I agree. I don't think it's a big risk, but it's not a zero risk.
SeanC wrote:Refunds - that adds more work, one of the reasons I don't like the £1 in a bucket approach.
Again, I agree. The point I was attempting to make is that the psychology of actively rewarding people for demonstrating the desired behaviour (as opposed to not 'punishing' them) may prove more effective. But finding a way of doing that without increasing workload is even more challenging than finding an effective way of doing it, which is hard enough.
SeanC wrote:spitalfields wrote:There might be a few attempts by some single-occupancy drivers to meet off site and use one car to enter the designated parking
Yes - this is exactly the behaviour we want to encourage. Using a regional event in the Lake District and orienteers travelling from Manchester as an example, so the first time this happens, some members meet up in say Kendal for the final few miles of car sharing. That's multiple new car sharers. Next time they will think 'that was fun last time, and we saved money, so why don't we meet up in Bolton for the final 50 miles?'* Orienteers of one club are normally quite spread out, and often in suburban areas, with the best way to meet up by car!
To clarify, I was thinking of the sort of situation implied by SJC, where the actions end up creating problems but without any tangible benefit.
The scenario you propose is, I agree, broadly speaking the sort of behaviour to encourage. I think the measure of success is the reduction in total car miles driven (perhaps by person, perhaps adjusted for additional emissions for cars carrying heavier loads, but gross mileage is broadly right). Several shortish individual journeys to a meeting point followed by a longer shared journey is probably the ideal. I know some clubs have regular meet-up spots and actively encourage this, especially when travelling to larger events. Setting the parameters so that the added inconvenience of these arrangements is outweighed by the perceived personal benefits is the puzzle that needs to be cracked. (Yes, there are also appeals to global responsibility that can be made, and for some people will be a major consideration. But the reality is that most decisions are made by the majority of people using a personal cost-benefit analysis, whether explicit or not).
I'm not so convinced that there's a behaviour-change route that starts with encouraging people to meet up close to the event location as a gateway to encouraging more impactful travel-sharing arrangements. In fact, I think there's a greater risk that inevitable inconveniences, like having to spend time rounding up all the car sharers, have a greater perceived negative effect on satisfaction with a shorter journey than it would with a longer journey. Losing 15 minutes on a 15 minute journey feels worse than losing 15 minutes on a two hour journey, even if the overall effect is the same. And if sharing over short distances doesn't feel like a good experience, I would think it's unlikely that sharing over longer distances would feel attractive. But I would be delighted to be proved wrong.
Overall, I think what's needed is an approach where the parameters are set so that sharing transport is both a rational choice and 'feels' attractive. I think it has to be accepted that sharing transport introduces additional complication and/or inconvenience, and that the change that can be achieved simply by appealing to the greater good is limited, whether or not that's a comfortable thing to accept. So any incentive or reward needs to be designed with a recognition that it has some ground to make up to be regarded by the majority as an equal choice; and probably has to then go beyond that to be effective in encouraging behaviour change.
- spitalfields
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Re: £20 car parking fee
For the Saxons Haysden Country Park event tomorrow -
'Public Transport options
Tonbridge station is a pleasant 1.5km walk through the park.'
Drafted (it has to be said) by SeanC.
https://www.saxons-oc.org/events/summer ... 3-jul-2022
'Public Transport options
Tonbridge station is a pleasant 1.5km walk through the park.'
Drafted (it has to be said) by SeanC.
https://www.saxons-oc.org/events/summer ... 3-jul-2022
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DaveK - green
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Re: £20 car parking fee
Fozzy
You've got a thing against the Skelmersdale event haven't you? Yet you were pretty quick to attack anyone who made comment about Leeds.
Skelmersdale was touch and go whether it would happen at all so I sincerely hope that the VOLUNTEERS who put it on don't get fed up with your pokes and decide not to VOLUNTEER again.
General comment
Choosing where to have events has to take in all sorts of constraints and the bigger the event the more we seem to be limited by one factor or another.
Regarding rail/bus travel, timetables are developed in response to demand over a period of time. If a place has a history of needing trains delivering people to it by 10 am on weekend morning then the timetables will develop to meet demand. An event of 500 people every so often is not sustained demand. If we limit ourselves to only places with established services we will rule out many areas.
You've got a thing against the Skelmersdale event haven't you? Yet you were pretty quick to attack anyone who made comment about Leeds.
Skelmersdale was touch and go whether it would happen at all so I sincerely hope that the VOLUNTEERS who put it on don't get fed up with your pokes and decide not to VOLUNTEER again.
General comment
Choosing where to have events has to take in all sorts of constraints and the bigger the event the more we seem to be limited by one factor or another.
Regarding rail/bus travel, timetables are developed in response to demand over a period of time. If a place has a history of needing trains delivering people to it by 10 am on weekend morning then the timetables will develop to meet demand. An event of 500 people every so often is not sustained demand. If we limit ourselves to only places with established services we will rule out many areas.
- DM
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Re: £20 car parking fee
DM wrote:Fozzy
You've got a thing against the Skelmersdale event haven't you? Yet you were pretty quick to attack anyone who made comment about Leeds.
Not at all. I'm very grateful to the volunteers who put it on. It was good apart from the public transport oversight. so sorry if you misunderstood.
It's just a high profile example where public transport wasn't considered.
The Belper example is another good one.
So please don't think I'm singling out Skem. It sticks in my mind as I wanted to go by train, rather than be forced to drive, which proved totally impossible
I'm very open that I was extremely critical about the part of the event organisation (of which I was involved in) at Leeds when I had to fight (and it was a fight) to move the start window to allow for people to come by train if they wished.
It's common for the vast majority of orienteering organisers to ignore public transport because most don't even consider the possibility that people might like to use it and stick to a rigid formula (e.g. start windows 1030-1230), rather thinking a little more flexibily.
I accept there will always be some events that are extremely difficult to facilitate low carbon transport options, but quite regularly, it's made far more difficult than it needs to be.
- rf_fozzy
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Re: £20 car parking fee
rf_fozzy wrote:SeanC wrote:public transport is often challenging,
Exhibit A: British Sprint Championships in Skelmersdale, walkable from a station.
First starts *before* the first trains arrive (from anywhere).
Which is why the details for the event recommended:
event details wrote:Public Transport
The nearest rail mainline station is at Wigan, while Ormskirk on the Mersey Rail Network can be accessed from Liverpool. Both Wigan and Ormskirk have onward bus connections to the Skelmersdale Concourse.
- pete.owens
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Re: £20 car parking fee
Speaking as someone who is about to spend (at least) 49 minutes of my Saturday waiting at a train station for a bus that may or may not actually turn up in order to get home from work, I suspect that suggestions of long-distance journeys involving train-bus connections tend to come from people who have not recently attempted to make such a journey in the UK.
Sadly, it's beyond the power of orienteering to create a functional and integrated public transport system. The best we can do is try to fit our events around the public transport options that are available.
When CompassSport asks us where all the 21s have gone, we should perhaps wonder whether the fact that we're asking that question may be related to the fact that 28% of people aged 21-29 can't drive (pre-pandemic figure).
Sadly, it's beyond the power of orienteering to create a functional and integrated public transport system. The best we can do is try to fit our events around the public transport options that are available.
When CompassSport asks us where all the 21s have gone, we should perhaps wonder whether the fact that we're asking that question may be related to the fact that 28% of people aged 21-29 can't drive (pre-pandemic figure).
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: £20 car parking fee
It's not uncommon for people to have to pay £25-50 in fuel to/from an event. If that is not already be enough of an incentive to car share then I don't think fiddling about with the entry fees will make a lot of difference.
In my club people frequently car share, particularly for longer journeys. As an organiser I usually reckon on an average of 2 competitors per car, which means there are already quite a few with 3 or more.
In my club people frequently car share, particularly for longer journeys. As an organiser I usually reckon on an average of 2 competitors per car, which means there are already quite a few with 3 or more.
- Snail
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