We are all aware of the reasoning of having pre entries only recently, but as we are ' back to normal' , could we have at least limited entry on the day back?
Not everyone is able to commit 100% at being able to go to such and such event until late notice, and if we enter, just in case, it is not always easy or possible to get a refund.
So please allow at least limited eod with a few spare maps or allow a late email to (i appreciate 'busy') organiser.
Entry on the Day - bring it back please
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Re: Entry on the Day - bring it back please
Great minds.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15867
Think we're one of the very few clubs who are doing EOD any more.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15867
Think we're one of the very few clubs who are doing EOD any more.
- rf_fozzy
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Re: Entry on the Day - bring it back please
Just leave online entries open until the morning of the event and get the best of both worlds.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: Entry on the Day - bring it back please
Scott wrote:Just leave online entries open until the morning of the event and get the best of both worlds.
This point was made previously - yes, this works for events with morning starts (e.g. regionals) (although I've done events and only made the decision to go after the event has already started - because I knew I could get there by last start and there was EOD...), but still can be an issue for evening events. Particularly if a work day.
And for families, it could also be a late decision on if they can attend (e.g. if one child decides to arise from a bed or not) and even a late closing online entry may not be sufficient.
It also depends on when SI managers set up the event in SI Timing - some times it can be a few days beforehand.
- rf_fozzy
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Re: Entry on the Day - bring it back please
You have until midnight to enter our next local event tomorrow. And you're all guarenteed a map as we can print some on the morning if there is a late surge
https://racesignup.co.uk/site/event.php?eventid=2722
https://racesignup.co.uk/site/event.php?eventid=2722
- SeanC
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Re: Entry on the Day - bring it back please
rf_fozzy wrote:This point was made previously - yes, this works for events with morning starts (e.g. regionals) (although I've done events and only made the decision to go after the event has already started - because I knew I could get there by last start and there was EOD...), but still can be an issue for evening events. Particularly if a work day.
For evening events, you just leave the entries open until the evening instead.
For example: https://slow.org.uk/events/burgess-park-race-2022/
Start window 18:00 to 19:30
Online entries close 19:25
rf_fozzy wrote:It also depends on when SI managers set up the event in SI Timing - some times it can be a few days beforehand.
You can set the event up as far in advance as you like. You just need to leave the final import of the online entries, which is (being generous) a two-minute job, to the very last minute. If you have an internet connection at the event, which most events in England will, you can leave entries open and do periodic updated imports until the start window closes.
Our current volunteering posture is not sustainable and if we try to carry on as we are we are unlikely to have a sport in the UK in fifteen years' time. We need to stop using volunteers for jobs that competitors can do themselves (typing their own name into a computer, choosing a course from a drop-down box, making a credit card payment, parking in a parking bay), and leave volunteers to focus on the things where they can make a real difference.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: Entry on the Day - bring it back please
Scott wrote:Our current volunteering posture is not sustainable and if we try to carry on as we are we are unlikely to have a sport in the UK in fifteen years' time. We need to stop using volunteers for jobs that competitors can do themselves (typing their own name into a computer, choosing a course from a drop-down box, making a credit card payment, parking in a parking bay), and leave volunteers to focus on the things where they can make a real difference.
Spot on - how do we make the sport more efficient in its use of resources? - worthy of a thread of its own ...
- blindasabat
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Re: Entry on the Day - bring it back please
Scott wrote:rf_fozzy wrote:This point was made previously - yes, this works for events with morning starts (e.g. regionals) (although I've done events and only made the decision to go after the event has already started - because I knew I could get there by last start and there was EOD...), but still can be an issue for evening events. Particularly if a work day.
For evening events, you just leave the entries open until the evening instead.
For example: https://slow.org.uk/events/burgess-park-race-2022/
Start window 18:00 to 19:30
Online entries close 19:25
Yes, this is fine if you have the ability/facility to do this. Not always possible and in those (limited) circumstances, then a manual EOD is necessary.
You can set the event up as far in advance as you like. You just need to leave the final import of the online entries, which is (being generous) a two-minute job, to the very last minute.
Yes, I know. But some SI mangers like to have all this done days before the event (sometimes the weekend before), and so entries close ridiculously early. I'm often not sure if I can make it to some events the weekend before...
If you have an internet connection at the event, which most events in England will, you can leave entries open and do periodic updated imports until the start window closes.
Yes. If you have a connection - not always available. And if the SI person is willing to do this, then yes I agree this is the best solution. Again not always possible.
Our current volunteering posture is not sustainable and if we try to carry on as we are we are unlikely to have a sport in the UK in fifteen years' time.
I supect if orienteering doesn't exist in 15 years time, it's not to do with volunteers, but to do with the lack of engagement and outreach to newcomers - particularly from "non-traditional orienteering backgrounds"
And if we are actively preventing people from taking part in orienteering events, then that will put people off from orienteering.
We need to stop using volunteers for jobs that competitors can do themselves (typing their own name into a computer, choosing a course from a drop-down box, making a credit card payment, parking in a parking bay), and leave volunteers to focus on the things where they can make a real difference.
Given most events will have some form of enquiries person, it's not asking a lot to have this person double up to allow a small number of EOD competitors - I'm not expecting the events to go back to be entirely EOD, and the solutions you've outlined above are nice solutions - if they are workable and clubs implement them.
At the moment, at lot (most) clubs have no facility to enter events unless you pre-enter - sometimes up to two weeks in advance - even for local events. That's the problem.
- rf_fozzy
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Re: Entry on the Day - bring it back please
Scott wrote:Our current volunteering posture is not sustainable and if we try to carry on as we are we are unlikely to have a sport in the UK in fifteen years' time. We need to stop using volunteers for jobs that competitors can do themselves (typing their own name into a computer, choosing a course from a drop-down box, making a credit card payment, parking in a parking bay), and leave volunteers to focus on the things where they can make a real difference.
^^^ This.
We have been thinking about how to slim down the organisational requirements of local events for a long time - with marginal success. The pandemic forced the issue and made us realise that we only needed a fraction of the manpower to run events and organisers reported how much easier it made the job.
OK so you might have to make a commitment to enter an event beforehand - and risk your entry fee becoming a donation to the club if you can't make it. The alternative is requiring someone else to commit to turning up at the very start of the event and sit there for the duration, manning the cash box and for the organiser to devote effort into recruiting that person and providing them with somewhere to operate.
- pete.owens
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Re: Entry on the Day - bring it back please
Clubs need to decide why and for whom they put on events for. To my mind,the local event needs to be the most newcomer friendly, yet that event is likely to have the least volunteers. Once you start hiring dibbers you might as well double up the person's job to taking entries on the day. Events in an area frequented by the public draw interest and the inevitable can we take part. Not very friendly if the organiser says, "only if have a smart phone that pays your entry, otherwise you'll need to drive home and enter there and then drive back." That would apply to me.
- maprun
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Re: Entry on the Day - bring it back please
maprun wrote:Clubs need to decide why and for whom they put on events for. To my mind,the local event needs to be the most newcomer friendly, yet that event is likely to have the least volunteers. Once you start hiring dibbers you might as well double up the person's job to taking entries on the day. Events in an area frequented by the public draw interest and the inevitable can we take part. Not very friendly if the organiser says, "only if have a smart phone that pays your entry, otherwise you'll need to drive home and enter there and then drive back." That would apply to me.
^^^This.
I think local and regional events are the most important orienteering events.
I'm sure somewhere there's a statistic that said the majority of BOF registered orienteers will only do events put on by their club. Or certainly in the region. Even more so for non-BOF people who orienteer.
That's why all the jargon, all the extra bits and pieces and so forth are unhelpful.
It's only when we get to major events - JK, British Champs where we should be worrying precisely about all the details.
In my view.
- rf_fozzy
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Re: Entry on the Day - bring it back please
pete.owens wrote:Scott wrote:Our current volunteering posture is not sustainable and if we try to carry on as we are we are unlikely to have a sport in the UK in fifteen years' time. We need to stop using volunteers for jobs that competitors can do themselves (typing their own name into a computer, choosing a course from a drop-down box, making a credit card payment, parking in a parking bay), and leave volunteers to focus on the things where they can make a real difference.
^^^ This.
We have been thinking about how to slim down the organisational requirements of local events for a long time - with marginal success. The pandemic forced the issue and made us realise that we only needed a fraction of the manpower to run events and organisers reported how much easier it made the job.
OK so you might have to make a commitment to enter an event beforehand - and risk your entry fee becoming a donation to the club if you can't make it. The alternative is requiring someone else to commit to turning up at the very start of the event and sit there for the duration, manning the cash box and for the organiser to devote effort into recruiting that person and providing them with somewhere to operate.
How many voluteers do you use at local events? Genuine question.
For most of our events, we have an organiser/planner (joint role) and an SI person, plus someone who does a bit of "light"/armchair controlling (depends on the experience of the planner as to how much is done) and checks the RA. And that's about it - so 3 people usually. All of them have EOD (although to make the SI person's life a bit easier, we've started asking people to pre-enter via a google form, which takes about 1/2 the entries).
If the map needs updating then one of the mappers will do that and we ask people running to collect controls.
But we don't do full SI on all our local events - for our scores we do them entirely on trust and no SI, so they don't even require an SI person. There was just me and the RA checker/controller for the last local score event I did in Feb. That was EOD only and was simply a list which people signed themselves up on and then paid.
EOD neededn't be complicated or time consuming.
And I wouldn't recommend it, but I've organised, planned, mapped and run SI (full SI - all boxes) on my own at a local event. It *was* manageable (just), but I was glad of having half a dozen control collectors at the end of the evening.
- rf_fozzy
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Re: Entry on the Day - bring it back please
What is an “RA” ? Risk assement ?
As we are sharing, here is how we try to do Local, level D, events (it doesn’t always work out like this);
1/ Somebody volunteers to be organiser, picks a date and venue. Checks the landowner permission and does a recce of the map. All other tasks the organiser either does themselves or asks another club member to help with.
2/ We advertise the event with a link to a Google form which reports to the club secretary. The form asks for name, email, course choice, BOF number, SI number (or hire request), age group, club, and a tick box acceptance of risk. The form produces a spreadsheet with this info on it. The closing date for the form is set as 24 hours before the event.
3/ Any necessary map updates are done and then the courses are planned on Purple Pen which exports the course pdf’s for printing, the courses described on an xml file and pdf’s of the course descriptions (which are provided through our website; anybody who wants one prints it themselves). We print the maps ourselves on a small laser office printer, which constrains course planning to an A4 piece of paper.
4/ After the cut off time for the entry form the number of entries is passed to whoever has agreed to do the printing, with a wild eyed stab in the dark guess for the number of extra maps for late comers, usually a couple of extra maps per course. After the entry form cut off time we can still print extra’s if anybody has a sudden change of plans and wants to attend. They just need to contact us.
5/ Anybody who has asked for a borrowed SI Card (we don’t charge) will have the number allocated to their name on the entry list and it bagged in a marked envelope. We also carry unallocated dibbers for late comers.
6/ We use SI-droid. The entry list and Purple pen files are loaded into our tablet device, printers and batteries are checked, SI units memory cleared and clocks synchronised the day before.
7/ On the day the organiser and mate will put out the controls early and set up Registration/ Download/ First Aid, usually in a car boot. When the entrants turn up one person does most of the chatting, befriending newbies, a little light instruction, issuing dibbers and maps and first aid while the other person monitors the progress of the event and handles the download. We pay cash on the day only, exact change only, usually a fiver a skull. People who have asked for a SI Card help themselves from a basket of named envelopes. Because we use SI-droid (which works for both line and score) any unbooked late comers can simply have their details written down, be handed a map and SI Card and allowed to get on with it; their details can be easily entered into the system after download. Very, very, occasionally we have had to recycle maps to accommodate casual entries. If the work load is high we shanghai other club members into helping. The earlier people express an interest in entering the easier the workload is.
8/ After the event the organiser will trouser the cash and do a bank transfer to the club for the income. The results will be exported from SI-droid and posted on the club and BOF websites. Any problems identified will be debriefed and fixed.
9/ Do it again.
As we are sharing, here is how we try to do Local, level D, events (it doesn’t always work out like this);
1/ Somebody volunteers to be organiser, picks a date and venue. Checks the landowner permission and does a recce of the map. All other tasks the organiser either does themselves or asks another club member to help with.
2/ We advertise the event with a link to a Google form which reports to the club secretary. The form asks for name, email, course choice, BOF number, SI number (or hire request), age group, club, and a tick box acceptance of risk. The form produces a spreadsheet with this info on it. The closing date for the form is set as 24 hours before the event.
3/ Any necessary map updates are done and then the courses are planned on Purple Pen which exports the course pdf’s for printing, the courses described on an xml file and pdf’s of the course descriptions (which are provided through our website; anybody who wants one prints it themselves). We print the maps ourselves on a small laser office printer, which constrains course planning to an A4 piece of paper.
4/ After the cut off time for the entry form the number of entries is passed to whoever has agreed to do the printing, with a wild eyed stab in the dark guess for the number of extra maps for late comers, usually a couple of extra maps per course. After the entry form cut off time we can still print extra’s if anybody has a sudden change of plans and wants to attend. They just need to contact us.
5/ Anybody who has asked for a borrowed SI Card (we don’t charge) will have the number allocated to their name on the entry list and it bagged in a marked envelope. We also carry unallocated dibbers for late comers.
6/ We use SI-droid. The entry list and Purple pen files are loaded into our tablet device, printers and batteries are checked, SI units memory cleared and clocks synchronised the day before.
7/ On the day the organiser and mate will put out the controls early and set up Registration/ Download/ First Aid, usually in a car boot. When the entrants turn up one person does most of the chatting, befriending newbies, a little light instruction, issuing dibbers and maps and first aid while the other person monitors the progress of the event and handles the download. We pay cash on the day only, exact change only, usually a fiver a skull. People who have asked for a SI Card help themselves from a basket of named envelopes. Because we use SI-droid (which works for both line and score) any unbooked late comers can simply have their details written down, be handed a map and SI Card and allowed to get on with it; their details can be easily entered into the system after download. Very, very, occasionally we have had to recycle maps to accommodate casual entries. If the work load is high we shanghai other club members into helping. The earlier people express an interest in entering the easier the workload is.
8/ After the event the organiser will trouser the cash and do a bank transfer to the club for the income. The results will be exported from SI-droid and posted on the club and BOF websites. Any problems identified will be debriefed and fixed.
9/ Do it again.
- Davy
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Re: Entry on the Day - bring it back please
Davy wrote:What is an “RA” ? Risk assement ?
Sorry. Yes RA = Risk Assessment.
Your Level D arrangement is v similar to how we do it, except the planner and organiser are one person, and setting the fixtures dates/area is done by the fixtures sec at a committee level (we usually have a small subcommittee of fix sec, mappers and series coordinators have a short chat in about October/November and we agree the fixture schedule for Mar-Feb the following year) and all our permissions are broadly done through our local permissions sec (who also does the permissions for most of our regional events), so the planner/organiser only has to focus on planning and organising the event.
Other than that, our organisation is v similar.
- rf_fozzy
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Re: Entry on the Day - bring it back please
Going back to the original post. Yes have pre-entry up to say day before event and then EOD at a small surcharge at the event. Novices & newcomers are not prepared to commit or find our entry systems daunting and pre-entry only is putting them off. Yesterday DVO Regional event had 192 pre-entries (of whom as usual 10% didn't turn up) and about 30 EOD so plenty of runners on white, yellow, orange as well as several regular orienteers turning up on the day for more technical courses. But pre-entry puts the workload onto just one or two people instead of a registration team.
Given we need to go to print around 10 days before the event even with pre-entry the number of maps to print is still a gamble but experience looking at what else is on enables a pretty good estimate.
Given we need to go to print around 10 days before the event even with pre-entry the number of maps to print is still a gamble but experience looking at what else is on enables a pretty good estimate.
- MJG
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