What does everyone think about the timings and format for the British Sprints day?
The UK seems to be in the minority of countries that still have a qualification and final on the same day - which is great for the excitement, but less great if you have non orienteering commitments. If I look at timings for this year with qual from 10-12 and final from 2-3.45, I effectively have to plan to be onsite from 9am to 5pm, given I can’t choose my start slots. Add the travel time from London and I’d be out from 6am to 8pm at least - that’s a very long time for 2x15 minute races.
It also makes it harder for the organisers and precludes the possibility of having sprints and sprint relays on the same day, with the middle the day before (which would still be a long day, but slightly shorter and at least solve the 2023 problem of not having a sprint relay organiser.)
Time to get rid of the qualification, or does everyone love the extra thrill?
British Sprints
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Re: British Sprints
Far too much hanging around, plus its very stressful for the organisers to get the start list up on time (witness many failures in the past).
IMO, the only reason to have a qualifier is if you've too many entrants for the start list - but with 5-year age groups that's not the case. I think its now clear that people regard one 15 minute race as too little entertainment for one day (even WOC doesn't do that any more), so two races - total time or am sprint pm relay is the way to go.
IMO, the only reason to have a qualifier is if you've too many entrants for the start list - but with 5-year age groups that's not the case. I think its now clear that people regard one 15 minute race as too little entertainment for one day (even WOC doesn't do that any more), so two races - total time or am sprint pm relay is the way to go.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: British Sprints
Some will recall that we used to have a single sprint championships open to all with a knockout heat and then a final. Of course only the top runners ever had a realistic chance of winning or even reaching the A-final. Then when sprint races became more popular an age class competition was introduced with two separate races and the times combined. The two different competitions were separated in the race calendar and this did not work well and so the decision was made to combine them. I controlled the last age class championship at HMS Sultan in 2010 and then for my sins organised the first joint championships in 2011. As Graeme pointed out it was felt that people would be reulctant to travel for just one race and so the two race format was kept. The qualifier/heat format had to be kept to give the elites experience for JWOC/WOC and so this format was used for all age classes.
Personally I like the qualifier / final format. I know that my body objects to two hard races in a day and so there is the added factor of doing just enough in the qualifier to reach whatever final you are aiming for before going for that medal run in the afternoon.
The current format seems sensible with the relay on the Saturday afternoon followed by the individual on the Sunday - even if you aren't interested in the relay it allows travel on the Sat. It's just a shame that the events are now being scheduled during the cricket season.
Personally I like the qualifier / final format. I know that my body objects to two hard races in a day and so there is the added factor of doing just enough in the qualifier to reach whatever final you are aiming for before going for that medal run in the afternoon.
The current format seems sensible with the relay on the Saturday afternoon followed by the individual on the Sunday - even if you aren't interested in the relay it allows travel on the Sat. It's just a shame that the events are now being scheduled during the cricket season.
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Re: British Sprints
NeilC wrote: The qualifier/heat format had to be kept to give the elites experience for JWOC/WOC and so this format was used for all age classes.
I've never understood what the "experience" means. I can see they have to run two races in a day, but how does the format affect what the JWOCers in particular actually do?
As Neil says, for the best WOC runners, they can afford to take the qualifier a little easier & safer at the British. But that's exactly the *wrong* thing to practice for WOC/JWOC where they're no longer the best.
Two races that both matter in a day would be the closest approximation to what our athletes actually need to do at JWOC/WOC. Two-races total-time** would achieve that, give most entrants the value for money they want, simplify things for the organisers, and allow for 18E and 20E champions.
If you *really* want to give the elites relevant WOC experience, you'd have a one-off BOC sprint in the morning, using it as qualifier for a KO sprint in the afternoon. But I wouldn't want to wish that on any organisers...
**Obviously the JOK Chasing Sprint is the finest format known to mankind . But some people don't seem to understand that
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: British Sprints
graeme wrote:for the best WOC runners, they can afford to take the qualifier a little easier & safer at the British. But that's exactly the *wrong* thing to practice for WOC/JWOC where they're no longer the best.
Up until last year prospective JWOC runners were having to complete against the M/W21s and so this would would have provided a more realistic JWOC scenario. The situation with WOC runners has changed over the last 15 years with more countries taking sprint seriously and the level of competition has increased. So yes, the knockout format is probably not working quite so well at this level anymore.
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Re: British Sprints
Considering JWOC Sprint doesn't have (and as far as I'm aware never has had) a qualification race, I'm not sure of its relevance in this context...
Patrick
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Re: British Sprints
The issue for me is a 10am start on a Sunday (same as last year) effectively precludes arriving by public transport the same day. For a city centre event like Leeds, public transport should be a valid way to arrive.
11-1 and 1-3 at least gives a fighting chance if you live close enough.
12-2 and 4-6 would be even better, but I appreciate this is a long weekend if you've done the relays too and for the volunteers.
10am on a Saturday is much more possible, but creates other issues I guess.
11-1 and 1-3 at least gives a fighting chance if you live close enough.
12-2 and 4-6 would be even better, but I appreciate this is a long weekend if you've done the relays too and for the volunteers.
10am on a Saturday is much more possible, but creates other issues I guess.
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Re: British Sprints
Len wrote:The issue for me is a 10am start on a Sunday (same as last year) effectively precludes arriving by public transport the same day. For a city centre event like Leeds, public transport should be a valid way to arrive.
11-1 and 1-3 at least gives a fighting chance if you live close enough.
12-2 and 4-6 would be even better, but I appreciate this is a long weekend if you've done the relays too and for the volunteers.
10am on a Saturday is much more possible, but creates other issues I guess.
That was my concern too, and will probably discourage me from going especially since travelling by car isn't particularly attractive - expensive parking and the "park and ride" buses don't start early enough. Looking at trains for last Sunday as an example, you couldn't get there in time from anywhere further away than York, Ilkley or Skipton.
Why not have the individual event on the Saturday and the relays on the Sunday, since I'm pretty sure that more people would attend the former than the latter? Then you could have 12-2 and 4-6 on the Saturday for the individuals and 10-3 on the Sunday for the relays, for example; not such a long weekend for competitors or volunteers.
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Re: British Sprints
Ditto. It's particularly odd given that the preliminary details say "We strongly advise that public transport is the best way to get to the event".
Agree with roadrunner that following the BOC (Long) pattern of Saturday Individual and Sunday Relay might be better.
Agree with roadrunner that following the BOC (Long) pattern of Saturday Individual and Sunday Relay might be better.
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Re: British Sprints
following the BOC (Long) pattern of Saturday Individual and Sunday Relay might be better.
The Relay is a good warm-up for the Individual. If the other way round I would be more likely just to do the Saturday and then go home.
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Re: British Sprints
The preliminary information on the website regarding start times is not correct.
First starts in the heats will be, at the earliest, 10.45 I believe (depending on entry numbers it might be closer to 11). This is what I have negotiated. Precisely to allow people to arrive by train if they choose to do so.
First arrivals into Leeds all seem to be around 09.30-10, which is sufficient time for the 10-15min jog from the station to assmbly, stash a bag, nip to the loo and jog the 800m (max) to the start as a warm up.
Unfortunately the dates were set with the relays Sat, sprints Sun before I was able to point out the reverse might have been better. However, using Leeds University campus on a Saturday is sometimes more problematic - particularly this year with the extra graduations taking place.
First starts in the heats will be, at the earliest, 10.45 I believe (depending on entry numbers it might be closer to 11). This is what I have negotiated. Precisely to allow people to arrive by train if they choose to do so.
First arrivals into Leeds all seem to be around 09.30-10, which is sufficient time for the 10-15min jog from the station to assmbly, stash a bag, nip to the loo and jog the 800m (max) to the start as a warm up.
Unfortunately the dates were set with the relays Sat, sprints Sun before I was able to point out the reverse might have been better. However, using Leeds University campus on a Saturday is sometimes more problematic - particularly this year with the extra graduations taking place.
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Re: British Sprints
Snail wrote:Ditto. It's particularly odd given that the preliminary details say "We strongly advise that public transport is the best way to get to the event".
Agree with roadrunner that following the BOC (Long) pattern of Saturday Individual and Sunday Relay might be better.
See my previous message.
RE: Sat individual/Sun Relay - possibly. I actually wonder if any of the relays are worth holding any more.
Either we need to make it ****far**** easier to arrange teams (i.e. fewer restrictions/categories) more like open non-orienteering relays or do something to make them more attractive.
Entries are always significantly lower than the individual days. even at the JK.
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Re: British Sprints
Definitely not an event for "new people", at £27.00 (entry) and £4.50 (SIAC hire).
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Re: British Sprints
MrD wrote:Definitely not an event for "new people", at £27.00 (entry) and £4.50 (SIAC hire).
Still a lot cheaper than most running/adventure sports.
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buzz - addict
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Re: British Sprints
buzz wrote:Still a lot cheaper than most running/adventure sports.
Really?
I went to a fell race last week, £6.00.
Nothing to hire, no car park charge and EOD.
Joined the FRA £20, received a printed catalogue calendar with all the events, and this week 160 page Fellrunner magazine / book, a beautifully illustrated piece.
I struggle to understand why everything associated with BOF causes it to be so expensive.
Fell Running clearly have insurance, they have what appears to be a well run sport and they do it for minimal cost.
I accept that Orienteering needs a Map and that is an additional expense, but not to the extent that it can come close to making up the price differential.
BOF is expensive and a problematic expense... Discuss?
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