I know I lost about a minute on the leg near the end because I took the optimum route which, I discovered, had heaps of unmarked windblow along it.
It looks like on the junior elite course most athletes took the sub-optimal route, almost like they knew the higher route was no good.....
But some poor souls must have taken it and it would have really affected their overall result..... by the looks of things Ewan Tryner was one of the unlucky ones.
Mr planner. Your bad.
Northern Champs - Unmapped windblow
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Northern Champs - Unmapped windblow
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Lard - diehard
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Re: Northern Champs - Unmapped windblow
Lard wrote:Mr planner. Your bad.
I'd cut them a bit of slack. The organising team put together the event in 2 weeks after access to previous area (Simonside) was lost, so it was always inevitable something wouldn't be perfect. So maybe "your bad" for such a harsh judgement?
That aside, I think you are referring to 27-28 on course 2 (and some similar legs on some other courses)? Having done course 1, and taken in both the top and bottom tracks on the two circuits of the forest we enjoyed, I agree there were lots of fallen trees to get over on that top track. I expect it cost a few seconds, although for fit junior elite athletes it wasn't that much effort to leap over most of them (guess 20-30s compared to had there been no trees?), and the bottom track wasn't exactly fun either in all its slippy muddiness. And while this might have cost the unfortunate Euan Tryner a bit of time (and maybe one place on course 2 results?), there are splits of people well below him in the results whose GPS also shows them taking that top track and they have beaten Euan by 90s on that leg (e.g. Adam Methven, Ben Gostick) so I'm not sure you can attribute all or even most of his lost time on that leg to the windblown.
- Duncan
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Re: Northern Champs - Unmapped windblow
As Duncan says, this event was sorted in a remarkably short time.
The final details did state that they hadn't time to map the windblow, so route choice was always going to be a bit of a gamble. On course 11, leg 9-10, I chose the larger track rather than the smaller path, and the track was badly affected by windblow. I'm not very agile and I reckon I lost 3-4 minutes climbing over and going round trees. But hey-ho, I've no idea what state the smaller path was in anyway.
Both my route and the one Duncan describes are on the North-facing slope and obviously took the full blast of storm Arwen, which was unusual in coming from the north, and the trees are not as resiliant to wind from that direction. And it was an ice storm, so masses of extra weight on trees. I live not too far away, and we won't get the mess on our property cleared up this year...or next.
Obviously, for the juniors this was an important race, but the selectors will know what the conditions were like.
I would like to thank NATO (and NN) for managing to provide a varied w/e of orienteering under demanding circumstances.
The final details did state that they hadn't time to map the windblow, so route choice was always going to be a bit of a gamble. On course 11, leg 9-10, I chose the larger track rather than the smaller path, and the track was badly affected by windblow. I'm not very agile and I reckon I lost 3-4 minutes climbing over and going round trees. But hey-ho, I've no idea what state the smaller path was in anyway.
Both my route and the one Duncan describes are on the North-facing slope and obviously took the full blast of storm Arwen, which was unusual in coming from the north, and the trees are not as resiliant to wind from that direction. And it was an ice storm, so masses of extra weight on trees. I live not too far away, and we won't get the mess on our property cleared up this year...or next.
Obviously, for the juniors this was an important race, but the selectors will know what the conditions were like.
I would like to thank NATO (and NN) for managing to provide a varied w/e of orienteering under demanding circumstances.
- Karen
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Re: Northern Champs - Unmapped windblow
As others have said great job by NATO not throwing the towel in and putting together a great event in two weeks, BUT it would have been so easy to 'overprint' a few purple lines along the track.
Is the issue that controllers only focus on fairness in terms of the control location and don't consider issues en-route? There was another similar problem at the British Champs where a strip of light green woodland avoided by most on one of the long legs turned out to be a pleasant bit of wood with a path up the middle. Anyone who chose to risk the straight route gained a minute or so purely by luck.
I'd be interested to know if our learned jury members would ever consider upholding a protest that addressed the fairness of a route choice. You can never make orienteering completely fair particularly forest orienteering, but when the issues are as blatant as these two examples perhaps more care needs to be taken for major events in particular.
Is the issue that controllers only focus on fairness in terms of the control location and don't consider issues en-route? There was another similar problem at the British Champs where a strip of light green woodland avoided by most on one of the long legs turned out to be a pleasant bit of wood with a path up the middle. Anyone who chose to risk the straight route gained a minute or so purely by luck.
I'd be interested to know if our learned jury members would ever consider upholding a protest that addressed the fairness of a route choice. You can never make orienteering completely fair particularly forest orienteering, but when the issues are as blatant as these two examples perhaps more care needs to be taken for major events in particular.
To oblivion and beyond....
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buzz - addict
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Re: Northern Champs - Unmapped windblow
If I was the planner and aware that there were route choice discrepancies along that slope I would have planned the leg to take all runners along one certain route - so no-one was disadvantaged. An easy thing to have done.
My bad for suggesting? I do hope the selectors are made fully aware of such issues, we do have enough technology these days to spot when a leg is causing trouble to some.
I really enjoyed the event and area and I appreciate the efforts all the clubs have gone to.
You're very welcome to come north and enjoy my and my club's offerings whenever you like. I'm hosting an event next month, having hosted one in January.
My bad for suggesting? I do hope the selectors are made fully aware of such issues, we do have enough technology these days to spot when a leg is causing trouble to some.
I really enjoyed the event and area and I appreciate the efforts all the clubs have gone to.
You're very welcome to come north and enjoy my and my club's offerings whenever you like. I'm hosting an event next month, having hosted one in January.
From small acorns great Oak trees grow.
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Lard - diehard
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Re: Northern Champs - Unmapped windblow
buzz wrote:I'd be interested to know if our learned jury members would ever consider upholding a protest that addressed the fairness of a route choice.
Yes, it happens all the time with locked gates in urbans.
Here, a jury would do the kind of analysis that Duncan describes to see whether the problem significantly affected the outcome of the event - here identifying the Northern Champions. Someone slipping from 6th to 7th won't cut it.
The jury has nothing to do with "selection" - selectors are free to not use "information" from particular legs if they choose. Presumably that's why they have selection races rather than qualification races.
What the jury should not do is to either assign blame, or extend sympathy, to the planner/organisers - it's about getting the fairest result from the information available.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Northern Champs - Unmapped windblow
Lard wrote: we do have enough technology these days to spot when a leg is causing trouble to some.
Winsplits+routegadget are extremely useful for this. Compare time lost/position on leg vs overall position. Unfortunately, it's seldom possible to know who went which way when the jury is convened on the day.
Last edited by graeme on Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Northern Champs - Unmapped windblow
Lard wrote:If I was the planner and aware that there were route choice discrepancies along that slope I would have planned the leg to take all runners along one certain route - so no-one was disadvantaged. An easy thing to have done.
It is always "easy" in after the event to focus on the fine details of a particular issue say how that could have been avoided by doing things differently.
But first ask yourself:
How many different courses were there?
How many legs on each course?
How many route choices on each leg?
How many mapping details on each route choice need to be checked?
Then consider how long it would take to check them all - and then persuade the mapper to go out and re-survey them to correct the map.
My bad for suggesting?
Not for pointing out an issue - but for laying into the planner.
We have had a number of recent threads here spotting various issues that have occurred in recent events. Discussing these things is good - because we all learn the sort of things to look out for and try to avoid when planning courses. The trouble is this is often personalised in terms of criticising officials: "Mr planner. Your bad", "The controller should have..." , "controlling standards slipping these days" etc.
- pete.owens
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Re: Northern Champs - Unmapped windblow
We entered the event knowing that there was a good chance our runs would be affected by windblow, as below -
Windblown There are areas of windblown trees from Storm Arwen that are not mapped. Juniors on courses 17-18 may have to divert from the path around these trees. The courses will be difficult to follow with buggies.
Very happy that NATO were able to put the event on at such short notice.
Windblown There are areas of windblown trees from Storm Arwen that are not mapped. Juniors on courses 17-18 may have to divert from the path around these trees. The courses will be difficult to follow with buggies.
Very happy that NATO were able to put the event on at such short notice.
Last edited by MAPS on Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- MAPS
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Re: Northern Champs - Unmapped windblow
buzz wrote:
Is the issue that controllers only focus on fairness in terms of the control location and don't consider issues en-route? There was another similar problem at the British Champs where a strip of light green woodland avoided by most on one of the long legs turned out to be a pleasant bit of wood with a path up the middle. Anyone who chose to risk the straight route gained a minute or so purely by luck.
As a controller I aim to ensure that every course is fair, which obviously includes the fairness of the legs as well as the control sites. The planner and controller are ideally a close knit team and between them will get to know the area. They will identify problem areas and if remapping can’t be done will attempt to avoid such areas or use the final details to warn competitors of windblown trees etc.
In an ideal world (and I assume for WOC) every route option on every course will be run and checked but for nearly all other events and us mere mortal controllers we do our best to cover as much ground as possible.
As to the Northern Champs I traversed that windblown slope and wasn’t surprised given the final details warning. I found the mapping of rhododendron thickets in the first part of the course much more challenging in terms of finding controls on or near thickets.
However I am cutting the organising team a lot of slack for this event, given that it was put on at such notice. It was up to NWOA, NEOA and YHOA to decide whether it was still worthy of being the Northern Champs (I think it was) and it is entirely up to selectors and BOF as to which events they nominate as selection races and the weight they put on them, taking into account all available information (which I think the organisers gave them).
- RoT
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Re: Northern Champs - Unmapped windblow
buzz wrote:There was another similar problem at the British Champs where a strip of light green woodland avoided by most on one of the long legs turned out to be a pleasant bit of wood with a path up the middle. Anyone who chose to risk the straight route gained a minute or so purely by luck.
Having taken that route choice, I thought the path looked very much as if it had come into being during the course of the event - broken branches, freshly trampled undergrowth etc.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
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"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: Northern Champs - Unmapped windblow
RoT wrote:In an ideal world (and I assume for WOC) every route option on every course will be run and checked but for nearly all other events and us mere mortal controllers we do our best to cover as much ground as possible.
pete.owens wrote:How many different courses were there?
How many legs on each course?
How many route choices on each leg?
How many mapping details on each route choice need to be checked?
Then consider how long it would take to check them all - and then persuade the mapper to go out and re-survey them to correct the map.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that every last route choice in every course is checked but the examples given were key parts of key route choice legs at major events. I think its worth discussing route choice as well control placement issues and considering mitigating measures that can be used even at the last minute and learn for future events.
graeme wrote:Someone slipping from 6th to 7th won't cut it.
A moot point but it did affect the outcome of the M18 race, although not the M18 Northern Champion.
As others have said the selectors can decide how to interpret the results.
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buzz - addict
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Re: Northern Champs - Unmapped windblow
buzz wrote: I'd be interested to know if our learned jury members would ever consider upholding a protest that addressed the fairness of a route choice.
Of course, upholding a protest is only half the story, at a championship the jury are then very limited as to what they can do: they can't take out the leg, reinstate a mispunch or adjust the time. Pretty much the only option is to void the class. You might bounce the problem back to the organiser by stating that "on the available evidence runner X performed best, despite not having the fastest time".
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Northern Champs - Unmapped windblow
As someone who was too lazy to take either the upper or lower paths on that leg and traversed, the traverse was equally crappy, but that might have been expected.
My slight whine about the mapping was that in the first bit there seemed to be a decision made to map the rhododendron as dark green and the holly was ignored. This was pretty confusing, and could have been in the pre race details.
A good set of races though, so thanks to all involved.
My slight whine about the mapping was that in the first bit there seemed to be a decision made to map the rhododendron as dark green and the holly was ignored. This was pretty confusing, and could have been in the pre race details.
A good set of races though, so thanks to all involved.
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