A bit of a plea to all clubs - please can you begin to phase back in EOD to local/regional (and where possible) national events?
I've noticed an ongoing trend that (a) there is no EOD and (b) entry closing dates - even for smaller regional events - are getting earlier and earlier.
I understand that during the height of the pandemic, removing EOD was a sensible precaution, as reflected in the BOF guidelines. But these have now been relaxed and we know that transmission of Covid-19 in outdoor settings is negligible, particularly if social distancing is maintained.
Yet almost no events (even with some clubs at local events!!) seem to allow EOD at the moment.
I am also congnizant that allowing EOD does require extra manpower and extra maps to be ordered, so there is a small extra effort and a small extra cost. But, having one person extra to man an entries tent (especially when this is usually combined with enquiries) is not usually too much work, nor is the minor effort of the SI team to handle a handful of extra entrants (I've done both of these jobs, so I know what's required). As for the extra cost, it usually only takes 3-4 people entering on the day to make up for the costs of printing extra maps. And usually EOD costs an extra £1/2 for the hassle - which I'm fine with.
I have no issue with clubs saying they've only got (say) 5 spare black maps, 10 blue, 7 green etc and it's first come first served on the day, and so I might not get to run the course I particularly want to do - that's fine.
But remember that not everyone can plan their lives out to revolve around orienteering, sometimes weeks in advance. Sometimes we all need a bit of flexibility. E.g. Attending a weekend event may depend on other commitments and timings (I play a team sport too and we don't always know kick off time sometimes until the Wed before) and if it's a local weeknight event, that often depends on work - certainly can't commit to that days beforehand.
I've also noticed some clubs now closing pre-entries 2 weeks before the event! -why? (and with no EOD). Except for major events, I can't see the need to do this. We closed BNOC entries 10 days before the event - so we could order the maps and have time to check them as per Level A event rules. (plus all the start time seeding that was needed). That's not usually case for Regional events. You just need time to order the maps. And if you have them ready to go, placing the order Monday means they arrive by Wednesday with a reliable printer.
I'm not blaming anyone or any particular clubs and I understand entirely the decisions made - just really pointing out that for some competitors EOD is extremely valuable.
Sorry for the fairly minor semi-rant, but Orienteering as a sport often likes to make life difficult and this (for me) is another example doing that. Particularly to allow newcomers into the sport - you need to be open to people who can just "drop in" - especially at local and regional events.
Bring back Entry on the Day!
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Re: Bring back Entry on the Day!
It's surprised me a little, but we've still had a big turnout of newbies even with pre-entry only. It meant that volunteers on the day could focus on meet and greet rather than head down and type names into a computer.
There are so many plus points for pre-entry only that I don't think we'll ever go back to EOD or part EOD.
We do allow pre-entry very close to the actual event date, a day or two.
There are so many plus points for pre-entry only that I don't think we'll ever go back to EOD or part EOD.
We do allow pre-entry very close to the actual event date, a day or two.
- SeanC
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Re: Bring back Entry on the Day!
For events in remote hard-to-get-to locations I think there is less benefit from EOD providing entries are open until a few days before.
For events in public areas with lots of public about e.g. town parks I agree absolutely EOD should be reinstated. This gives an opportunity to pick up new participants who just happen to be there at the time.
For events in public areas with lots of public about e.g. town parks I agree absolutely EOD should be reinstated. This gives an opportunity to pick up new participants who just happen to be there at the time.
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Re: Bring back Entry on the Day!
Note that there is a difference between "entry on the day" and "online entry". For the current London night series, SLOW have been leaving online entries open until five minutes before the start closes and using the direct pull from SiEntries to SiTiming to allow people to enter online on the night.
In other words, with a start window of 18:30 to 19:30 on a Tuesday, online entries close at 19:25 on that same Tuesday.
This allows EOD but removes the need for anyone to take entries, handle cash or mess around with card readers at the event, freeing up volunteers to do precisely the meet and greet role that SeanC mentions above - which can include advising newcomers on which course to enter on the day, while getting them to make the entry themselves on their own phone. Others from SLOW (afterthought?) will be able to give a better idea than I can of how this feels in practice.
There is probably an additional advantage in newcomers who've been introduced to online entry from the very start being less likely to be deterred by it in future.
Once you've printed the maps, you can limit the number of entries in SiEntries to ensure that you don't run out on the night.
It obviously only works if you can locate download somewhere with an internet connection, but for those places where this is possible - which, frankly, is the vast majority of the UK these days - I suspect it's the future.
In other words, with a start window of 18:30 to 19:30 on a Tuesday, online entries close at 19:25 on that same Tuesday.
This allows EOD but removes the need for anyone to take entries, handle cash or mess around with card readers at the event, freeing up volunteers to do precisely the meet and greet role that SeanC mentions above - which can include advising newcomers on which course to enter on the day, while getting them to make the entry themselves on their own phone. Others from SLOW (afterthought?) will be able to give a better idea than I can of how this feels in practice.
There is probably an additional advantage in newcomers who've been introduced to online entry from the very start being less likely to be deterred by it in future.
Once you've printed the maps, you can limit the number of entries in SiEntries to ensure that you don't run out on the night.
It obviously only works if you can locate download somewhere with an internet connection, but for those places where this is possible - which, frankly, is the vast majority of the UK these days - I suspect it's the future.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: Bring back Entry on the Day!
A significant number of people entered on the TVOC Hodgemoor event last Sunday, which was called off the day before because of the ravages of Storm Eunice, were able to run in the GO Chantries event instead on the same day because online entry was kept open until 11.00 am. I entered at 9.15 just before I left home
- Gnitworp
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Re: Bring back Entry on the Day!
I get the point about EOD for 'walk ins' of newbies who see the event and enter as a spur of the moment. Personally I've only seen this happen occasionally - though I guess it depends on the venue. Some online entry systems can be a bit confusing for newcomers as well, and for EOD you can just say "turn up on the day and we'll sort it out".
But still our new year's day local event this year with pre-entry only had about 60 INDs, pretty much the same as the 2016 new year's day event in the same venue which was EOD only, but without the mad panic to EOD 120 people for a mass start.
I have a theory that by pre-entering, some newcomers are more likely to turn up as they have committed to going and EOD is susceptible to people just backing out on the day - human nature for people doing an unfamiliar activity of course. This gain may cancel out the loss from newcomers who are put off by the entry system or who only find out about the event on the day.
But still our new year's day local event this year with pre-entry only had about 60 INDs, pretty much the same as the 2016 new year's day event in the same venue which was EOD only, but without the mad panic to EOD 120 people for a mass start.
I have a theory that by pre-entering, some newcomers are more likely to turn up as they have committed to going and EOD is susceptible to people just backing out on the day - human nature for people doing an unfamiliar activity of course. This gain may cancel out the loss from newcomers who are put off by the entry system or who only find out about the event on the day.
- SeanC
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Re: Bring back Entry on the Day!
SeanC wrote:Some online entry systems can be a bit confusing for newcomers as well
This is a good point. I'm not sure any of the major entry systems are particularly newcomer-friendly at the moment. The problem is probably that it doesn't usually form part of a club's decision about which entry system to use - they tend to ask 'how much does it cost?' and 'how easy is it for the organiser?', but not 'how easy is it for the competitors?' - with the result that there's no pressure for any of them to improve.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: Bring back Entry on the Day!
I agree with everything in the original post. Pre entry is a barrier to participation, simple as that. It may be a barrier that most of us are used to overcoming but it should be removed wherever possible.
How successful would parkrun be if you had to pre-enter every week?
It's not just a newcomer thing, I've missed two weekend events recently because the entry deadline was 2 weeks before and I simply couldn't commit at that stage, but by the day I was free.
My other half decided on the day she would like to do a Lamp-O the other week, only to find entries had already closed. For midweek informal events EOD is a must, not a nice to have.
Keeping online entries open is a fair compromise, providing it is simple to do.
How successful would parkrun be if you had to pre-enter every week?
It's not just a newcomer thing, I've missed two weekend events recently because the entry deadline was 2 weeks before and I simply couldn't commit at that stage, but by the day I was free.
My other half decided on the day she would like to do a Lamp-O the other week, only to find entries had already closed. For midweek informal events EOD is a must, not a nice to have.
Keeping online entries open is a fair compromise, providing it is simple to do.
- Len
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Re: Bring back Entry on the Day!
When I started orienteering - back in 1988 - some friends who were going to the JK persuaded me to go with them and see if I could enter on the day*; it was no problem at all. This was before the internet, electronic punching, map printing on demand and so on and when participant numbers were much higher than today (there were even parallel courses for some classes to cope with the numbers). It's a bit surprising that it is less common to provide it these days, as all the technical improvements should make it easier.
* - You could say it was the day before, as we went on the Friday which in those days was a non-competitive training event.
* - You could say it was the day before, as we went on the Friday which in those days was a non-competitive training event.
- roadrunner
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Re: Bring back Entry on the Day!
I recommended Orienteering, as a sport, to a friend with an 8 year old son. He was interested and followed up with text message asking for more information. That made me realise how complicated it is to an 'outsider'. Fixture list is here, course list there, the colours mean this, then you enter here, an SI card is this (but you don't need your own) etc, etc.
EOD - turn up and a (hopefully) helpful person will sort it all out.
EOD - turn up and a (hopefully) helpful person will sort it all out.
- Excelman
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Re: Bring back Entry on the Day!
Those were the concerns I voiced to my committee when we agreed to continue using pre-entry only for all events this year.
However newcomer numbers (when we've done publicity) have been about the same. If you can get the same numbers there, then retention should be better with pre-entry only as the limited pool of volunteers can focus on 'meet and greet' and not typing into a computer.
EOD can be a poor experience for newcomers and experienced people alike. Stressed volunteers trying to type and cope with screen glare, newcomers asked questions they don't know the answer to such as "what age class" (newcomer must shout age publicly to group of strangers) and "what colour course do you want to do" (newcomer thinks "eerr, dunno, just tell me please"). You really need two volunteers, one welcoming person to talk to the newcomer and explain the questions/colour courses etc, and one to do the typing. All this with a queue of possibly impatient experienced orienteers behind.
It should be possible to do pre-entry in a simple way that guides newcomers - even pointing to information such as previous maps and vids of how to do orienteering. I agree that our entry systems aren't well taylored to this. Ideally a separate entry process / ie separate pages are needed on our entry systems for non members/newcomers where no knowledge is assumed.
However newcomer numbers (when we've done publicity) have been about the same. If you can get the same numbers there, then retention should be better with pre-entry only as the limited pool of volunteers can focus on 'meet and greet' and not typing into a computer.
EOD can be a poor experience for newcomers and experienced people alike. Stressed volunteers trying to type and cope with screen glare, newcomers asked questions they don't know the answer to such as "what age class" (newcomer must shout age publicly to group of strangers) and "what colour course do you want to do" (newcomer thinks "eerr, dunno, just tell me please"). You really need two volunteers, one welcoming person to talk to the newcomer and explain the questions/colour courses etc, and one to do the typing. All this with a queue of possibly impatient experienced orienteers behind.
It should be possible to do pre-entry in a simple way that guides newcomers - even pointing to information such as previous maps and vids of how to do orienteering. I agree that our entry systems aren't well taylored to this. Ideally a separate entry process / ie separate pages are needed on our entry systems for non members/newcomers where no knowledge is assumed.
- SeanC
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Re: Bring back Entry on the Day!
SeanC wrote:However newcomer numbers (when we've done publicity) have been about the same.
How are you measuring all the people (new or otherwise) who don't turn up because they're forced to enter online weeks beforehand?
Answer: you aren't.
SeanC wrote:then retention should be better with pre-entry only
Assumption without evidence.
SeanC wrote:EOD can be a poor experience for newcomers and experienced people alike
Odd comment. Never had an issue with EOD. It's meant on several occasions I've been able to do events because I can't always commit weeks beforehand.
The lack of EOD is certainly now actively preventing me from doing quite a few events.
SeanC wrote:You really need two volunteers, one welcoming person to talk to the newcomer and explain the questions/colour courses etc, and one to do the typing. All this with a queue of possibly impatient experienced orienteers behind.
Yes, this is true. I'm surprised that you normally only have one person to do EOD/data input. We normally have at least one person (usually two early on) on enquiries (whether or not there's EOD) and then the SI team do the data entry. Expecting one person to do all this is certainly not good.
It's perfectly possible to have pre-entry to collect the vast bulk of entries (either through Fabian or other entry system), but keep EOD for the smaller numbers who can't commit weeks in advance or see the event and want to give it a go.
It also discriminates against families where the orienteering is more casual - the decision on whether or they attend may be down to something as ephemeral as the weather on the day.
But, if you're doing pre-entry, then your EOD is likely to be smaller and so your concerns about "massive queues" and overworked volunteers is likely to be an exaggeration.
Sorry, not everyone can organise their life neatly into little boxes and commit to things weeks in advance all the time.
- rf_fozzy
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Re: Bring back Entry on the Day!
I have on numerous occasions decided not to attend EOD-only events organised by certain clubs who previous experience have proven to be stingy with their map printing, because I have not been able to get there in "orienteer time" (i.e. at least 30 minutes before the first start) and I haven't been prepared to drive to an event where I do not know whether there will be any maps left.
Online entry that stays open on the day of the event, with entry limits tied to the number of maps printed, is the best option for everyone (except, admittedly, for the small proportion of clubs holding events in areas with no internet connection).
Online entry that stays open on the day of the event, with entry limits tied to the number of maps printed, is the best option for everyone (except, admittedly, for the small proportion of clubs holding events in areas with no internet connection).
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
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Scott - god
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Re: Bring back Entry on the Day!
rf_fozzy - Kent clubs always keep entries open right up to the day before the event. Surely that would keep you happy?
For example you can warm up for the British Middles with a sprint around Danson Park with DFOK on Saturday... I'm just about to enter.
Scott - good point about maps. Pre-entry only has freed us from the stress of 'guess how many maps to print' (= lots of waist or standing around hoping to pick up a mud soaked second hand map, or for beginners 'do you mind sharing this one map in your group of 6').
For example you can warm up for the British Middles with a sprint around Danson Park with DFOK on Saturday... I'm just about to enter.
Scott - good point about maps. Pre-entry only has freed us from the stress of 'guess how many maps to print' (= lots of waist or standing around hoping to pick up a mud soaked second hand map, or for beginners 'do you mind sharing this one map in your group of 6').
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Re: Bring back Entry on the Day!
Unfortunately, the demise of EOD has probably ended my participation in orienteering after 35 years!. I am now at the stage where I decide to attend an event at the last minute depending on what else is happening in my life. I can see the benefits of pre-entry for the club, but had hoped that as we returned to O after Covid we would also see the return of EOD. Is it not possible for both systems to be available? Can a club not ask for pre-entry by the majority, with a small number of maps available for EOD? Those of us who wait until the day to make a decision about attending would know that a course might be free (although not always their usual course if those maps have already gone). Pre-entry benefits the organising club and not always their customer.
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