UK Elite League aims to find the best all-round orienteers in the UK, develop a healthy domestic elite scene and keep young orienteers in the sport.
We do this by running a website, keeping scores, posting on social media and getting articles in CompassSport. The League has been been going for six years and overdue a review. I feel the League has done a decent job of the first two aims but could do better on the third by not alienating runners who are happy not striving to be the best.
I would be interested to hear from Nopers (lurkers and non-lurkers) on their view of the League, future ideas and feedback on the possible reforms below:
• Remove Elite from the name to indicate all are welcome to the League races. We want the League to indicate high quality races that the elite want to be at, but are also a good time for all 20-40s. National Orienteering League? Orienteering Superleague?
• At League-only long races, like in the Lakes over the last year, ensure there are properly advertised short mens and short womens courses. These allow not-so-elite orienteers to be part of the weekend and could encourage university club attendance. (Side note: the mountain bike Enduro World Series refers to the short category as EWS80 to indicate 80% of the distance, could be a good way of presenting orienteering...)
• Set-up a small 'levy' on League race competitors to fund the League and enhancements: website costs, GPS tracking, engraving, commentary, prize fund contribution.
• The MW18 classes add significantly to the media coverage burden and potentially take away focus from the best Seniors and MW20s. There are JIRCS / Junior Home Internationals that can maintain MW18 engagement making the UK Elite League less important. Propose removing MW18s classes but allow scoring in the MW20 category (as is the case now).
If you value the work the League is doing then the cash prize-fund is always open at donorbox.org/ukeol
Duncan Birtwistle
Is the UK Elite League too elitist?
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Is the UK Elite League too elitist?
Last edited by duncan b on Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own and do not represent the views of British Orienteering
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- duncan b
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Re: Is the UK Elite League too elitist?
As one of the least "Elite" regular Elite League competitors, I think it's working well, and doing a pretty excellent job of filling the niche created by the demise of the UK Cup.
I would personally keep the branding. I don't think calling it "Elite" is going to put off too many M/W21s, and it makes it sound impressive when you tell non-orienteering friends what you did at the weekend.
The small-scale, standalone Elite League-only weekends are particularly good at creating a social atmosphere and personally I think they are where the league can add real value in retaining younger adults. It would be great to see more of these in the league and fewer major championships. Performing well at the British Middles is enough of an aim in its own right, and it doesn't need the extra incentive of Elite League points.
I imagine that rustling up organisers for more standalone races may be an issue, but you shouldn't hesitate to tap up those of the Elite League regulars who are better placed to organise a race to put one on (hint hint).
Post-Covid, it may be worth considering doing Elite League weekends with a designated campsite (or, even better, an assembly field-come-campsite). Probably easier to do from a safeguarding perspective if you're excluding M/W18s.
I would definitely support a small levy for event enhancements.
I can see the sense in making the standalone Long races more inclusive with the option of a shorter course, but it's crucial to keep the focus on the target demographic and ensure that the Elite League races don't drift into becoming open events by accident. (I say this knowing that I am gradually inching out of the target demographic myself...)
On inclusivity, all the standalone events should really have a portable toilet unless it is absolutely impossible to arrange.
I would personally keep the branding. I don't think calling it "Elite" is going to put off too many M/W21s, and it makes it sound impressive when you tell non-orienteering friends what you did at the weekend.
The small-scale, standalone Elite League-only weekends are particularly good at creating a social atmosphere and personally I think they are where the league can add real value in retaining younger adults. It would be great to see more of these in the league and fewer major championships. Performing well at the British Middles is enough of an aim in its own right, and it doesn't need the extra incentive of Elite League points.
I imagine that rustling up organisers for more standalone races may be an issue, but you shouldn't hesitate to tap up those of the Elite League regulars who are better placed to organise a race to put one on (hint hint).
Post-Covid, it may be worth considering doing Elite League weekends with a designated campsite (or, even better, an assembly field-come-campsite). Probably easier to do from a safeguarding perspective if you're excluding M/W18s.
I would definitely support a small levy for event enhancements.
I can see the sense in making the standalone Long races more inclusive with the option of a shorter course, but it's crucial to keep the focus on the target demographic and ensure that the Elite League races don't drift into becoming open events by accident. (I say this knowing that I am gradually inching out of the target demographic myself...)
On inclusivity, all the standalone events should really have a portable toilet unless it is absolutely impossible to arrange.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
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Scott - god
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Re: Is the UK Elite League too elitist?
The only league that matters is the UKOL.
If that isn't up to scratch, perhaps design it so that the elite events are core from the start. Surely, the best Elite is winning that league?
The elite league is another league that goes on top of -
UKUL
UKOL
Regional UL
Regional Leagues
Club UL
Club Leagues
UL = Urban League
If that isn't up to scratch, perhaps design it so that the elite events are core from the start. Surely, the best Elite is winning that league?
The elite league is another league that goes on top of -
UKUL
UKOL
Regional UL
Regional Leagues
Club UL
Club Leagues
UL = Urban League
- MrD
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Re: Is the UK Elite League too elitist?
As far as I can tell, the UKOL appears to be working really well for the older age classes. However, I have previously finished on the M21 podium in the UKOL by virtue of being one of (if I recall correctly) two M21s with a full set of counting scores, which perhaps is an indication of how effective it has been at attracting 21s.
The Elite League is filling a very different niche, particularly with the standalone events, and is as much about "developing a healthy domestic elite scene and keeping young orienteers in the sport" as it is about "finding the best Elite". I think that trying to combine the two leagues would be a bad idea when it comes to those first two aims.
The Elite League is filling a very different niche, particularly with the standalone events, and is as much about "developing a healthy domestic elite scene and keeping young orienteers in the sport" as it is about "finding the best Elite". I think that trying to combine the two leagues would be a bad idea when it comes to those first two aims.
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Scott - god
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Re: Is the UK Elite League too elitist?
I think that's because the UKOL was focussed on the masses, over the Elites and perhaps it needs to be flipped.
Surely a Elite event can cope for the standard joe bloggs, it's also the masses that fund the sport, so why can't they use the same terrain?
How many upcoming elites travel with parents? How many parents want to run on the same terrain as the elites etc?
I think the Elite League is a scapegoat for a failing UKOL, merge the two.
Surely a Elite event can cope for the standard joe bloggs, it's also the masses that fund the sport, so why can't they use the same terrain?
How many upcoming elites travel with parents? How many parents want to run on the same terrain as the elites etc?
I think the Elite League is a scapegoat for a failing UKOL, merge the two.
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Re: Is the UK Elite League too elitist?
Surely a Elite event can cope for the standard joe bloggs, it's also the masses that fund the sport, so why can't they use the same terrain?
There are some fantastic orienteering areas that have the access and parking for a small Elite only race but would not cope with the numbers who would attend a UKOL event. So, much as we would like to run on them, it isn't going to happen.
- SJC
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Re: Is the UK Elite League too elitist?
sjc is absolutely right. The atmosphere at the standalone Elite League races has also been very different to almost any other orienteering race I've been to, with the exception of BUCS/BUSA and the old standalone WOC selection races. It's that aspect of it, rather than the league scoring, that has the potential to make a real difference to the objective of "keeping young orienteers in the sport". It would be basically impossible to recreate that atmosphere at a much larger UKOL event.
There have been a small number of juniors travelling with parents to the previous standalone Elite League races, and those parents have generally been accommodated with a run, albeit on one of the elite courses. If (as Duncan suggests) the Elite League were to drop the M/W18s category and focus on the 20-40 demographic, I imagine the number of people travelling with parents would drop to something close to zero.
It may seem a little exclusionary to have a series of races targeted solely at young(er) adults, but there are plenty of events targeted at juniors (JIRC, Peter Palmer, YBT Final, British Schools etc.), and - if we're honest - the vast majority of ordinary events in the UK are in effect targeted at the 50+ age group and/or at families, albeit often not as a result of a conscious decision to do so.
There have been a small number of juniors travelling with parents to the previous standalone Elite League races, and those parents have generally been accommodated with a run, albeit on one of the elite courses. If (as Duncan suggests) the Elite League were to drop the M/W18s category and focus on the 20-40 demographic, I imagine the number of people travelling with parents would drop to something close to zero.
It may seem a little exclusionary to have a series of races targeted solely at young(er) adults, but there are plenty of events targeted at juniors (JIRC, Peter Palmer, YBT Final, British Schools etc.), and - if we're honest - the vast majority of ordinary events in the UK are in effect targeted at the 50+ age group and/or at families, albeit often not as a result of a conscious decision to do so.
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Scott - god
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Re: Is the UK Elite League too elitist?
Scott wrote:As far as I can tell, the UKOL appears to be working really well for the older age classes. However, I have previously finished on the M21 podium in the UKOL by virtue of being one of (if I recall correctly) two M21s with a full set of counting scores, which perhaps is an indication of how effective it has been at attracting 21s.
Exactly. The UKOL is aimed at all age classes and runs throughout the year.
The primary objectives of the competition are as follows:
Encourage greater participation at a national level and thus increase the quality of competition.
Provide competition in a variety of terrain types, across the United Kingdom.
Promote new and alternative event formats.
Provide an excellent sporting experience.
Annually the UK Orienteering League will consist of 16-20* events from February to November spread across the country. They should offer a range of competition formats and terrain types.
According to the rules, the number of counting scores must be at least 50% of the races held. The consequence of that is that it rewards participation in lots of races as much as good results.
UKOL and UKEOL are very different things aimed at people with different interests.
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Spookster - god
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Re: Is the UK Elite League too elitist?
I think there are conflicting aims here, and each has their merits.
There are now so many elite competitions, both at home and abroad, that it can mean some athletes rarely take part in run-of-the-mill level B/C events, where they might provide inspiration to local younger orienteers - so in this sense the Elite league may not be helping. And keeping existing MW18-20s in the sport is laudable, but it is not going to be enough for a healthy future of the sport in the UK.
I wonder if a more ambitious one would be to attract newcomers in the MW 20/21 range, if it can somehow avoid conflicting with the Elite aim? This could include more active participation from university clubs, plus other initiatives. I think one of the issues with some uni clubs in recent decades has been that in attracting many experienced orienteers they have accidentally become more daunting / less welcoming to novices, so there are actually fewer students getting an introduction to the sport.
I am not particularly a fan of closed events, but I can see some merit in advertising something that is only available to M/W20-21s. As well as short courses, where the area (or perhaps an adjacent area) is suitable it could also include novice courses.
There are now so many elite competitions, both at home and abroad, that it can mean some athletes rarely take part in run-of-the-mill level B/C events, where they might provide inspiration to local younger orienteers - so in this sense the Elite league may not be helping. And keeping existing MW18-20s in the sport is laudable, but it is not going to be enough for a healthy future of the sport in the UK.
I wonder if a more ambitious one would be to attract newcomers in the MW 20/21 range, if it can somehow avoid conflicting with the Elite aim? This could include more active participation from university clubs, plus other initiatives. I think one of the issues with some uni clubs in recent decades has been that in attracting many experienced orienteers they have accidentally become more daunting / less welcoming to novices, so there are actually fewer students getting an introduction to the sport.
I am not particularly a fan of closed events, but I can see some merit in advertising something that is only available to M/W20-21s. As well as short courses, where the area (or perhaps an adjacent area) is suitable it could also include novice courses.
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Re: Is the UK Elite League too elitist?
I never understood why Red courses ceased to be.
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Re: Is the UK Elite League too elitist?
King Penguin wrote:I never understood why Red courses ceased to be.
I think that's probably a different debate- attracting new MW21s into the sport, rather than retaining juniors within the sport. FWIW, I don't think Red courses did/do either, at least not branded as Red courses. A '5k novice challenge' or such like, perhaps, but only if planned as 'dark yellow'.
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Re: Is the UK Elite League too elitist?
by duncan b » Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:21 pm
UK Elite League aims to find the best all-round orienteers in the UK, develop a healthy domestic elite scene and keep young orienteers in the sport.
The third of those points "keep young orienteers in the sport" is separate from the first two. I presume that what is meant is "keep all young orienteers in the sport" and not just "keep elite young orienteers in the sport". For a small sporting elite to function it needs a broad, wide and deep layer of ordinary participants to carry it. Those ordinary orienteers need a motivation to do so; that motivation is personal enjoyment. It has to be inclusive fun for everybody involved.
As regards youth elites I generally agree with what Snail has written. As regards ordinary youth orienteers there are many barriers put in the way of their participation. Without a large number of ordinary youth orienteers there is a much diminished pool from which the elite are recruited.
The barriers to participation in the 15 to 25 year old groups include paying for travel, accommodation, entry fees and equipment. Without direct family support these are difficult. Another major barrier is a lack of a peer group social structure for ordinary orienteers. When the youth elite are selected for their squads, teams and camps the ordinary orienteers are rejected. The kids who are keen but not winners are left out in the cold and feel it. They do not form orienteering social contacts outside their families; there is no motivation to continue in the sport away from their families.
People who are cleverer than me have thought of possible solutions. An obvious course of action would be to open training weekends to any youth orienteer who wants to participate (Scotland's "South West Area Team" is a good example of that). Another suggestion is for BOF to involve national youth groups (Scouts, Guides, BB's, Cadets, Youth Clubs, education authorities) in some sort of national Youth league, piggy backing on existing events; the youth groups would organise the travel, accommodation and entry fees.
It is my personal opinion that far too much hope is placed on the University teams; they are already an elite within an elite. We can expect that an elite group might win things, we can't expect them to recruit large numbers of participants.
I can understand that it is sometimes convenient for elite organisers to run elite only events but one of the main selling points of orienteering is the concept that all ages and categories compete simultaneously. That is also a main driver for the success of Parkrun and is one of the things which separates orienteering from other sports. Without the participation of ordinary orienteers in supporting roles running elite events becomes difficult.
Orienteering will survive if it is attractive to ordinary people.
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Re: Is the UK Elite League too elitist?
Davy wrote:Orienteering will survive if it is attractive to ordinary people.
For the 21s we're at the stage where most people are running "elite". (6-day results have 60 "elites" and 20odd on long and short). At the last JK, #1 on elite was an old man walking round with a stick! Events with 18s and 20s are even worse.
It wouldn't matter if elite courses were doable by "ordinary people", but they're not. Ordinary people want to do something they can manage enjoyably, and the same time something which many others are doing.
We do need proper, tough elite courses that will be too tough for the average orienteer. I think it's a mistake for the "elite" league to try to cater for non-elites while dictating the format to be that of international races. All that does is create another bauble to go with your JK and British medals, and make the pathway into the sport more difficult. It might even be better to have a properly elite class, accessed by qualifiers, to give an achievable target for 'ordinary people" So, it's not elitist enough...
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Re: Is the UK Elite League too elitist?
Looking at the league results, that's a smallish group of people who've gone to more than one or two events - small enough to questionaire everyone?
Regarding non elites. That's quite a big spread of people from the people who are just very good to almost newbies who enjoy an occasional fight with mud and bracken.
I think for the second group clubs and local leagues are the key. Perhaps coaching is not that relevant since the orienteering is an occasional adventure rather than a skill to master. Would most casual hill walkers go on a formal map reading course before a few summer hill walks? (perhaps more should).
I've found that publicity drives for our local club events have been fairly successful at getting groups of 20 somethings to events, or at least as successful as those in their 30s or 40s. I've seen groups of newbie 20 somethings looking at their maps and taking selfies after the event, not at all embarrassed to be at (what we perceive) to be an old sport.
But many see orienteering as something they will do once or twice a year when the event is local to them, something to work with though. A minority of this pool could be the future regular orienteers, and possibly a future 'elite' orienteer.
Most local orienteering events could do with some improvements to help attract these casual orienteers. Red courses? Forget these. What local events need more of are score courses, preferably those with a mixture of really easy controls, moderate and harder controls. Also encourage people to run in groups. Much of our language, entry systems and leagues discourages this, or even makes it seem impossible. This is depressing. For the casual orienteer, orienteering is much better in a group. Much more fun to be lost with your friends. No need to have to go to a distant regional training group in the hope of a possible social life, since you've brought your friends with you to compete with, and much more chance of sharing transport and costs. Finally, and obviously, decent publicity is needed.
Regarding non elites. That's quite a big spread of people from the people who are just very good to almost newbies who enjoy an occasional fight with mud and bracken.
I think for the second group clubs and local leagues are the key. Perhaps coaching is not that relevant since the orienteering is an occasional adventure rather than a skill to master. Would most casual hill walkers go on a formal map reading course before a few summer hill walks? (perhaps more should).
I've found that publicity drives for our local club events have been fairly successful at getting groups of 20 somethings to events, or at least as successful as those in their 30s or 40s. I've seen groups of newbie 20 somethings looking at their maps and taking selfies after the event, not at all embarrassed to be at (what we perceive) to be an old sport.
But many see orienteering as something they will do once or twice a year when the event is local to them, something to work with though. A minority of this pool could be the future regular orienteers, and possibly a future 'elite' orienteer.
Most local orienteering events could do with some improvements to help attract these casual orienteers. Red courses? Forget these. What local events need more of are score courses, preferably those with a mixture of really easy controls, moderate and harder controls. Also encourage people to run in groups. Much of our language, entry systems and leagues discourages this, or even makes it seem impossible. This is depressing. For the casual orienteer, orienteering is much better in a group. Much more fun to be lost with your friends. No need to have to go to a distant regional training group in the hope of a possible social life, since you've brought your friends with you to compete with, and much more chance of sharing transport and costs. Finally, and obviously, decent publicity is needed.
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