Surely the answer to all this is to build a few spare slots into the start list (whether allocated or not)? That way, there should never be a queue. You could do some modelling to find the right amount of spare slots but 20% as proposed by afterthought sounds like more than enough.
Whereas if you sell every last slot, queues are very likely (if everyone turns up) - although you always have the option to start people less than a minute apart to get things back on track.
In need of an O fix?
Moderators: [nope] cartel, team nopesport
24 posts
• Page 2 of 2 • 1, 2
Re: In need of an O fix?
Last edited by Arnold on Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Arnold
- diehard
- Posts: 737
- Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:24 am
Re: In need of an O fix?
Yes, spare slots are critical for the system to work. They featured in the first version of the BOF guidelines but seem to have been dropped for some reason.
A queue can only deal with temporary fluctuations in the rate of arrivals, and will only get shorter if on average competitors are arriving at a lower rate than can be processed through the start lane. If every slot is allocated then once a queue forms it will stay that long. I don't think you need to allow 20% empty slots - but just relying on no-shows seems a bit risky.
In theory, With allocated times you do away with the queue altogether. But that relies on competitors being able to present themselves at the start lane at exactly the allocated time. In practice the only way they can do that is to arrive early then you end up with an uncoordinated gathering rather than an orderly queue. I'm not sure why the guidelines were changed to permit this, since it pretty much guarantees to deliver the exact thing the we are trying to avoid.
A queue can only deal with temporary fluctuations in the rate of arrivals, and will only get shorter if on average competitors are arriving at a lower rate than can be processed through the start lane. If every slot is allocated then once a queue forms it will stay that long. I don't think you need to allow 20% empty slots - but just relying on no-shows seems a bit risky.
In theory, With allocated times you do away with the queue altogether. But that relies on competitors being able to present themselves at the start lane at exactly the allocated time. In practice the only way they can do that is to arrive early then you end up with an uncoordinated gathering rather than an orderly queue. I'm not sure why the guidelines were changed to permit this, since it pretty much guarantees to deliver the exact thing the we are trying to avoid.
- pete.owens
- diehard
- Posts: 752
- Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:25 am
Re: In need of an O fix?
Yes, I agree that the start-block-with-spares is actually a better system than fixed start times, because it removes the stress of missing your start time, and should therefore lead to less milling around at the start.
- Arnold
- diehard
- Posts: 737
- Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:24 am
Re: In need of an O fix?
I remember back in the 90s arriving early at the start with my daughter for a National Event somehwere near Alton Towers... we were excited because Yvette Haigh (world champion) had the same start time but she was still nowehere to be seen as we were called into the start box... we turned and looked back to see her jogging towards us and arriving 12 seconds after her name was called well warmed up and unflustered. No waiting around, no queuing.
So it can be done!
So it can be done!
- yted
- light green
- Posts: 222
- Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 1:53 pm
Re: In need of an O fix?
Maybe it can be done in theory, (especially by an elite orienteer who will have been spending that time warming up nearby) but in practice what you end up with is a significant gathering of ordinary competitors who will allow plenty of time because they want to make sure to be there for their slot and don't know to any degree of precision how long it is going to take them to get there.
This is exactly what I saw on Sunday. The start lanes themselves were well spaced and organised and the call up was set well back - so once you were in the system it all worked well. However, before the callup there was a gathering of about 30 people waiting to be called up. Now, it was in a reasonably open area so you wouldn't call it a crowd and the risk was probably pretty low - though that is still a larger gathering than we are currently allowed. Also at a personal level it was avoidable by checking the start clock then leaving the area until your call up time.
In a few weeks time we are going to be allowed 6 starters per minute - and that will scale up the gathering proportionately to nearly a hundred. OK, out doors with most of us at least partially vaccinated the level of risk is still small, but why create it at all when it is avoidable by using flexible start times.
This is exactly what I saw on Sunday. The start lanes themselves were well spaced and organised and the call up was set well back - so once you were in the system it all worked well. However, before the callup there was a gathering of about 30 people waiting to be called up. Now, it was in a reasonably open area so you wouldn't call it a crowd and the risk was probably pretty low - though that is still a larger gathering than we are currently allowed. Also at a personal level it was avoidable by checking the start clock then leaving the area until your call up time.
In a few weeks time we are going to be allowed 6 starters per minute - and that will scale up the gathering proportionately to nearly a hundred. OK, out doors with most of us at least partially vaccinated the level of risk is still small, but why create it at all when it is avoidable by using flexible start times.
- pete.owens
- diehard
- Posts: 752
- Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:25 am
Re: In need of an O fix?
The cure to this then, we be a Pre-Start at the exit of the car parking/assembly area. You are not allowed up to the start unless your time has been. This way, the car parking/assembly holds the problem.
People will always congregate, as they are ready too early/want to talk to friends etc.
If the problem is people gathering at the start, just include a Pre-Start call up/time clock, and force the problem back into the car park/assembly, where the area is probably a lot more open...
People will always congregate, as they are ready too early/want to talk to friends etc.
If the problem is people gathering at the start, just include a Pre-Start call up/time clock, and force the problem back into the car park/assembly, where the area is probably a lot more open...
- MrD
- white
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:29 pm
Re: In need of an O fix?
It seems that social distancing regulations will be all but over from next month so this thread seems a bit out of date.
Sport is primarily a social activity fulfilling deeply ingrained human needs. Even though orienteering is a solitary activity when competing, for the vast majority its the shared experiences and interaction with family, friends, clubs, teams, squads, etc, that's important.
So if we are to compete in the modern world we need to be thinking of ways to bring people together and make the event/training/club experiences more sociable rather than inventing clever ways to keep us apart.
Sport is primarily a social activity fulfilling deeply ingrained human needs. Even though orienteering is a solitary activity when competing, for the vast majority its the shared experiences and interaction with family, friends, clubs, teams, squads, etc, that's important.
So if we are to compete in the modern world we need to be thinking of ways to bring people together and make the event/training/club experiences more sociable rather than inventing clever ways to keep us apart.
To oblivion and beyond....
-
buzz - addict
- Posts: 1197
- Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:45 pm
- Location: Sheffield
Re: In need of an O fix?
It seems that social distancing regulations will be all but over from next month so this thread seems a bit out of date.
Absolutely. I would assume this applies to sport. So will BOF be preparing to revise their COVID-safe guidelines, allowing us to ease restrictions on event procedures (and entries) at the earliest opportunity.
- Parkino
- red
- Posts: 176
- Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:37 am
Re: In need of an O fix?
Parkino wrote:It seems that social distancing regulations will be all but over from next month so this thread seems a bit out of date.
Absolutely. I would assume this applies to sport. So will BOF be preparing to revise their COVID-safe guidelines, allowing us to ease restrictions on event procedures (and entries) at the earliest opportunity.
Yes, this thread may well be out of date very soon, but the excellent picture that Buzz paints of what the sport is to a lot of people and what it needs to be to develop and prosper might well usefully be the basis of another thread? Anyone?
-
DaveK - green
- Posts: 359
- Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:28 pm
- Location: The garden of England (too many gardens though and not enough forest).
24 posts
• Page 2 of 2 • 1, 2
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 204 guests