Really good episode of The Run In podcast today. I wondered if it would be useful to discuss some of the ideas from it on here. Here are some of the questions posed in the podcast and other questions that I thought might be worth thinking about:
- Should men and women have equal estimated winning times in long races?
- We tend to have more men than women in GB teams/squads. Would we be better to change that?
- What can we do to reduce the drop out rates in the W16-20 age groups? I'm not sure what the drop out rates are but I'm assuming from what they said in the podcast and from my understanding of participation levels in sport in general that girls/women tend to drop out at higher rates than boys/men, in those age groups.
- In general, do you think coaches in the UK understand the physical training differences between men and women? For example, how much awareness is there of things such as RED-S? I'm sure lots are but I just wondered if there is much training for coaches on factors that are specific to women.
Gender Equality in UK Orienteering
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Re: Gender Equality in UK Orienteering
I'm not sure about the first point. I know a good female athlete (becoming a decent orienteer) who was surprised that men and women don't run the same distance as eachother as they do in athletics.
Of course there should be more women... this has long been a problem. More often than not our women and girls do better in international competition than men and boys but fewer get selected for squads and teams. Outrageous but seemingly ingrained in the culture. It appears that selectors measure the performance of men with that of women by looking at minutes per kilometre or minutes behind the leader. Any such comparisons are meaningless of course. Women have to be compared with women and men with men. And it's the position not the time difference that matters. Second place gets a silver medal whether he/she loses by 1 second or 1 minute.
I have little knowledge of the final topic.
Of course there should be more women... this has long been a problem. More often than not our women and girls do better in international competition than men and boys but fewer get selected for squads and teams. Outrageous but seemingly ingrained in the culture. It appears that selectors measure the performance of men with that of women by looking at minutes per kilometre or minutes behind the leader. Any such comparisons are meaningless of course. Women have to be compared with women and men with men. And it's the position not the time difference that matters. Second place gets a silver medal whether he/she loses by 1 second or 1 minute.
I have little knowledge of the final topic.
- yted
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Re: Gender Equality in UK Orienteering
The question over equality in race distances is currently causing some controversy in the cross country running world.
https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/news/a3 ... lity-plan/
https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/news/a3 ... lity-plan/
- SJC
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Re: Gender Equality in UK Orienteering
If the women that take part in the races decide they want to run further, that’s fine. But ask them. In Scotland the national xc women’s race was extended to 10k by Scottish Athletics committee, and us female competitors were supposed to be grateful. So patronising.
If you want to squads to be more equal you need to start by trying to address the drop out at junior level.
If you want to squads to be more equal you need to start by trying to address the drop out at junior level.
- housewife
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Re: Gender Equality in UK Orienteering
Will female junior athletes see people like themselves taking part in the sport?
A quick look at the British Orienteering ranking page will show that this is highly unlikely in many/most regions.
A quick search for w18 or w20 runners that have completed 6 ranking events in a 12 month period (a sign of a regular orienteer?) in each region will reveal startlingly low numbers - somewhere between 0 and 2 being quite common.
A quick look at the British Orienteering ranking page will show that this is highly unlikely in many/most regions.
A quick search for w18 or w20 runners that have completed 6 ranking events in a 12 month period (a sign of a regular orienteer?) in each region will reveal startlingly low numbers - somewhere between 0 and 2 being quite common.
- tomgood
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Re: Gender Equality in UK Orienteering
NickTaylor wrote:
- Should men and women have equal estimated winning times in long races?
Unlike fixed course running events, Sprint and Middle Distance orienteering disciplines are defined by equal estimated winning times, rather than distance, for both gender at 30-35 minutes for Middle and 12-15 minutes for Sprint. I see no reason why the same should not apply to Long. I think women are getting short-changed on challenge and entertainment. I think it's rather anachronistic - maybe it's a remnant legacy of the 1950s and earlier when they weren't allowed to run more than 1 mile? But, as Housewife says, ask them what they want.
- Gnitworp
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Re: Gender Equality in UK Orienteering
Yes, the estimated winning times should be the same, and that is probably the solution for XC as well at a championship level.
However the very prominent RunEqual group are quite convinced it is the distance run that should be equalised. I don't think that will help numbers in either XC or orienteering, but that's just a gut feeling on my part.
Sadly it doesn't look as being as simple as 'what do the majority of regular XC runners want?'
However the very prominent RunEqual group are quite convinced it is the distance run that should be equalised. I don't think that will help numbers in either XC or orienteering, but that's just a gut feeling on my part.
Sadly it doesn't look as being as simple as 'what do the majority of regular XC runners want?'
- Len
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Re: Gender Equality in UK Orienteering
Yeah, the debate going on in cross-country is interesting. I can appreciate the arguments on both sides (Could I sit on the fence any more?!). However, I do think there's a much bigger issue of why so many girls drop out (from cross-country and from orienteering) and I agree with Len that changing the distances slightly probably won't make much difference to that.
With regards to orienteering, tomgood has pointed to the fairly shocking numbers of W18s and W20s in most regions. That makes it so difficult for any girls coming through the age groups to have friends of the same age and without that, it's no surprise that so many drop out which just exacerbates the problem further.
To get a good picture of why so many girls drop out we'd need to ask those who've stopped orienteering what made them stop (not so easy as they're not orienteering anymore). I have some thoughts on some things that might help orienteering in general and I wonder if they would also help to level up the gender imbalances:
Like many regular orienteers, I came through the regional junior squad system. I got better and was lucky enough to be selected for a few summer tours and events. They kept me interested and gave me some amazing experiences and good friends. I'm sure the regional squads and summer tours are a huge part of why juniors carry on orienteering. You make tonnes of friends and it's just really sociable. However, for those that miss out on being selected it can be really difficult, and that gets increasingly problematic as you get older. My sister, for example, dropped out of orienteering earlier than I did. Having spoken to her about it, she said the main reason was that when she didn't get selected for a few events, she felt kind of surplus to requirements, like there was no pathway for her to carry on orienteering at a level that worked for her. The competitive side of orienteering works to the extent that it motivates a lot of people to take part when they're younger but I think a lot of people find it gets increasingly serious and competitive as you get older and that's not for them. My understanding from what I’ve read is that for a lot of sports, girls often say the main reasons they quit were that it got too serious and that they wanted to socialise more.
I’m not at all advocating getting rid of competitive orienteering, but just whether we should think about making sure there are pathways for people who just want to stay fit, go on trips and make friends and don’t want all of that to be dependent on them having to achieve a certain standard.
I think we could learn a lot from parkrun. I think one of the main reasons for its success is that it's completely accepting of people taking part at all levels, with absolutely no hierarchy at all. In fact, you're celebrated for just turning up. parkrun has shown a different way of doing things and I’m sure there are things we could take from that.
So how do you make orienteering more sociable for W16s and W18s and more supportive of people taking part at any level? Others may have better ideas but here are a few thoughts:
- Change the culture so that we talk more explicitly with juniors about enjoying orienteering first and foremost, with more focus on making friends, travelling to cool places, socials, and just having fun. For some that means elite competition and that’s brilliant, and they should be supported to excel. But for a lot of young people, it should be just about having fun and that not being dependent on achievement.
- Organise more events and weekends that include a big social element. Of course, there are already opportunities for young people to socialise on training weekends and tours but many of those are only open to those selected. What if there were a few more events/weekends that were specifically organised for M/W16s-M/W18s and had a big focus on socialising and having fun, and being less selective about who can attend?
- Or perhaps social opportunities need to be on a more local level? I'm not sure how you do that when there are so few W16s-W18s in each club. Maybe clubs could team up with neighbouring clubs to have joint socials?
- To echo housewife’s comment, a good place to start would be asking W16s/W18s what they enjoy most about orienteering and what would be likely to keep them in the sport.
I say all this with full respect for everyone who volunteers to keep the sport going as it is and I appreciate how much you do. And I’m enormously grateful for those that gave me the opportunities I had through the competitive orienteering structure.
Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts. Maybe I’m a bit idealistic with some of these ideas. I just think it’s a shame that so many people quit the sport. I realise that a lot of people will disagree with my ideas, and that's ok. I’m also probably quite out of date with what’s been going on in recent years within junior orienteering so appreciate I may be missing some key things that are already happening. But I reckon these are the kind of conversations worth having if we want more people to stay in orienteering. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
With regards to orienteering, tomgood has pointed to the fairly shocking numbers of W18s and W20s in most regions. That makes it so difficult for any girls coming through the age groups to have friends of the same age and without that, it's no surprise that so many drop out which just exacerbates the problem further.
To get a good picture of why so many girls drop out we'd need to ask those who've stopped orienteering what made them stop (not so easy as they're not orienteering anymore). I have some thoughts on some things that might help orienteering in general and I wonder if they would also help to level up the gender imbalances:
Like many regular orienteers, I came through the regional junior squad system. I got better and was lucky enough to be selected for a few summer tours and events. They kept me interested and gave me some amazing experiences and good friends. I'm sure the regional squads and summer tours are a huge part of why juniors carry on orienteering. You make tonnes of friends and it's just really sociable. However, for those that miss out on being selected it can be really difficult, and that gets increasingly problematic as you get older. My sister, for example, dropped out of orienteering earlier than I did. Having spoken to her about it, she said the main reason was that when she didn't get selected for a few events, she felt kind of surplus to requirements, like there was no pathway for her to carry on orienteering at a level that worked for her. The competitive side of orienteering works to the extent that it motivates a lot of people to take part when they're younger but I think a lot of people find it gets increasingly serious and competitive as you get older and that's not for them. My understanding from what I’ve read is that for a lot of sports, girls often say the main reasons they quit were that it got too serious and that they wanted to socialise more.
I’m not at all advocating getting rid of competitive orienteering, but just whether we should think about making sure there are pathways for people who just want to stay fit, go on trips and make friends and don’t want all of that to be dependent on them having to achieve a certain standard.
I think we could learn a lot from parkrun. I think one of the main reasons for its success is that it's completely accepting of people taking part at all levels, with absolutely no hierarchy at all. In fact, you're celebrated for just turning up. parkrun has shown a different way of doing things and I’m sure there are things we could take from that.
So how do you make orienteering more sociable for W16s and W18s and more supportive of people taking part at any level? Others may have better ideas but here are a few thoughts:
- Change the culture so that we talk more explicitly with juniors about enjoying orienteering first and foremost, with more focus on making friends, travelling to cool places, socials, and just having fun. For some that means elite competition and that’s brilliant, and they should be supported to excel. But for a lot of young people, it should be just about having fun and that not being dependent on achievement.
- Organise more events and weekends that include a big social element. Of course, there are already opportunities for young people to socialise on training weekends and tours but many of those are only open to those selected. What if there were a few more events/weekends that were specifically organised for M/W16s-M/W18s and had a big focus on socialising and having fun, and being less selective about who can attend?
- Or perhaps social opportunities need to be on a more local level? I'm not sure how you do that when there are so few W16s-W18s in each club. Maybe clubs could team up with neighbouring clubs to have joint socials?
- To echo housewife’s comment, a good place to start would be asking W16s/W18s what they enjoy most about orienteering and what would be likely to keep them in the sport.
I say all this with full respect for everyone who volunteers to keep the sport going as it is and I appreciate how much you do. And I’m enormously grateful for those that gave me the opportunities I had through the competitive orienteering structure.
Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts. Maybe I’m a bit idealistic with some of these ideas. I just think it’s a shame that so many people quit the sport. I realise that a lot of people will disagree with my ideas, and that's ok. I’m also probably quite out of date with what’s been going on in recent years within junior orienteering so appreciate I may be missing some key things that are already happening. But I reckon these are the kind of conversations worth having if we want more people to stay in orienteering. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
- NickTaylor
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Re: Gender Equality in UK Orienteering
housewife wrote:If the women that take part in the races decide they want to run further, that’s fine. But ask them.
What about the women who are not taking part?
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rocky - [nope] cartel
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Re: Gender Equality in UK Orienteering
These are all interesting and familiar problems. And not just reasons why girls drop out, but all teenagers, and lots of adults drop out too.
Well we're not doing much orienteering at the moment, so this is a good time for clubs to think about their long term strategy.
Personally I think the answer is pretty straightforward for most clubs. Think local and focus on your club.
- Run more local events with a local league just for your club, or maybe with a neighbouring club if it's a small club.
- When I say more local events, I mean enough for someone to go orienteering regularly just with these local events, so that's probably 20+ events per year.
- Make sure these events are weekend events if you want new adults and younger juniors.
- Make sure there is a good local league with prizes and awards for juniors and seniors (our local Kent Orienteering League does an OK job at this for example).
- Don't expect too much. For example encourage older juniors to compete at light green level if they want for example. Light green is still a tough course for many older juniors.
- Publicize the events through social media
- Once a decent crowd is established (and the pandemic is over), think of ways of getting a social scene going that's appropriate locally - it could be free coaching for juniors before the event for example.
A local/club based focus means that regional squads can be for the keen/ambitious juniors, rather than trying to be the only means juniors can socialise with other juniors.
Some things clubs need to get their heads round to achieve this IMHO:
- less regional events.
- more flexibility with areas/embargos etc. Local events should use 'good' areas more, conversely if we're going to offer 20+ events per year to the local orienteer clubs might have to be more imaginative with the areas they choose (eg more urban/park type areas), or go to areas multiple times a year (something juniors and newbies like).
NickTaylor - are you in a local club? Committees of 50+ types usually need people with new ideas, willing to challenge how things are done.
Well we're not doing much orienteering at the moment, so this is a good time for clubs to think about their long term strategy.
Personally I think the answer is pretty straightforward for most clubs. Think local and focus on your club.
- Run more local events with a local league just for your club, or maybe with a neighbouring club if it's a small club.
- When I say more local events, I mean enough for someone to go orienteering regularly just with these local events, so that's probably 20+ events per year.
- Make sure these events are weekend events if you want new adults and younger juniors.
- Make sure there is a good local league with prizes and awards for juniors and seniors (our local Kent Orienteering League does an OK job at this for example).
- Don't expect too much. For example encourage older juniors to compete at light green level if they want for example. Light green is still a tough course for many older juniors.
- Publicize the events through social media
- Once a decent crowd is established (and the pandemic is over), think of ways of getting a social scene going that's appropriate locally - it could be free coaching for juniors before the event for example.
A local/club based focus means that regional squads can be for the keen/ambitious juniors, rather than trying to be the only means juniors can socialise with other juniors.
Some things clubs need to get their heads round to achieve this IMHO:
- less regional events.
- more flexibility with areas/embargos etc. Local events should use 'good' areas more, conversely if we're going to offer 20+ events per year to the local orienteer clubs might have to be more imaginative with the areas they choose (eg more urban/park type areas), or go to areas multiple times a year (something juniors and newbies like).
NickTaylor - are you in a local club? Committees of 50+ types usually need people with new ideas, willing to challenge how things are done.
- SeanC
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Re: Gender Equality in UK Orienteering
Actually there's one other thing I should add to this list, encourage people to compete in groups. Some of our older juniors, now adults, carried on because they were competing together, which instantly makes orienteering a more sociable sport for the less serious competitor. Lots of the language we use in event details, and in leagues, seem to discourage group entries. There's so many benefits to competing in groups, but it seems to be discouraged by some in the sport as not 'proper' orienteering.
- SeanC
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Re: Gender Equality in UK Orienteering
I think Orienteering is just un-cool these days. I cant get my 17 year daughter to attend, even offering £££, she would rather stay at home and tidy her bedroom.
Probably more linked to -
a) Its difficult
b) Its dirty
c) Its hard work
However, when she does have a go, were talking Yellow / Orange courses, she does pretty well...
On the flip side, parkrun etc has a social media appeal (photos) and gets lots of kudos.
I think the sport is probably not helping itself with its pricing stance. £12 for a Level C event, if there were on the fence, they're defintely not attending now (£12 Entry, Plus Fuel, Plus Parking, Plus Equipment etc). They will always stay at Level D (£3 Entry), and think that is "Real Orienteering", however being absolutely trashed in the results by those who are out on a Level A, B & C, using the Level D event as Sprint Training .
Probably more linked to -
a) Its difficult
b) Its dirty
c) Its hard work
However, when she does have a go, were talking Yellow / Orange courses, she does pretty well...
On the flip side, parkrun etc has a social media appeal (photos) and gets lots of kudos.
I think the sport is probably not helping itself with its pricing stance. £12 for a Level C event, if there were on the fence, they're defintely not attending now (£12 Entry, Plus Fuel, Plus Parking, Plus Equipment etc). They will always stay at Level D (£3 Entry), and think that is "Real Orienteering", however being absolutely trashed in the results by those who are out on a Level A, B & C, using the Level D event as Sprint Training .
- MrD
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Re: Gender Equality in UK Orienteering
SeanC wrote:NickTaylor - are you in a local club? Committees of 50+ types usually need people with new ideas, willing to challenge how things are done.
Thanks Sean. Yep, I'm a member of MDOC and have started to get a bit more involved. I've put myself forward to do the coaching course so will see where that leads.
- NickTaylor
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Re: Gender Equality in UK Orienteering
MrD wrote:a) Its difficult
b) Its dirty
c) Its hard work
Those things don't seem to deter a significant number of young adults from forking out £70 for a Tough Mudder. But then, Tough Mudder definitely ticks the box for
MrD wrote:social media appeal (photos) and lots of kudos
When you think about the places we get to run, orienteering really ought to be one of the most photogenic sports, but I think that virtually all the race photos I have of myself were taken on the run-ins at major events - in other words, they show me running through a flat grassy field with a burger van and miles of forlornly flapping red-and-white barrier tape in the background. Very much not instaworthy, and if I did share them via social media I can't imagine they would do much to make anyone else want to give it a go.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: Gender Equality in UK Orienteering
Good point Scott.
Photos are another area where club committees can prepare for post pandemic orienteering. It just needs one or two members to get out into the woods and take lots of pictures. You don't need a fancy camera - just take lots of pictures, law of averages one or two will look good. There's always someone who's injured, or (particularly at local events) isn't that bothered about running, so someone will have time.
To be honest for publicity I tend to prefer pictures which are 95%+ scenery. The scenery is the star after all, and will never be uncool. Post lockdown this will be a big selling point - everyone must be completely fed up with their 4 walls and local area.
Scott - for publicity, something that would really help would be a resource of a small number of good publicity photos that all clubs could use, where the photographer has agreed to allow any bo member to use for orienteering publicity purposes. It just needs someone to curate and maintain say the 100-200 best ones with a variety of runners, scenery etc. Maybe with end of year awards for the best ones? Surely something British Orienteering could help with?
Photos are another area where club committees can prepare for post pandemic orienteering. It just needs one or two members to get out into the woods and take lots of pictures. You don't need a fancy camera - just take lots of pictures, law of averages one or two will look good. There's always someone who's injured, or (particularly at local events) isn't that bothered about running, so someone will have time.
To be honest for publicity I tend to prefer pictures which are 95%+ scenery. The scenery is the star after all, and will never be uncool. Post lockdown this will be a big selling point - everyone must be completely fed up with their 4 walls and local area.
Scott - for publicity, something that would really help would be a resource of a small number of good publicity photos that all clubs could use, where the photographer has agreed to allow any bo member to use for orienteering publicity purposes. It just needs someone to curate and maintain say the 100-200 best ones with a variety of runners, scenery etc. Maybe with end of year awards for the best ones? Surely something British Orienteering could help with?
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