Preparing for a restart.
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Re: Preparing for a restart.
My guess is the start restrictions are mirroring the tee off spacing adopted by golf, which is at least 10 minutes between groups (6 x 1.5 per 15 mins). Also spacing the start times allows for early/late starters to be slotted in without causing a build up near the start(s). With these restrictions having multiple safely spaced starts will be the key to larger events.
- maprun
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Re: Preparing for a restart.
The issue is avoiding gathering close to the start. Having more people in the terrain is not a problem (which is why the guidelines allow more than one start). The finish is less of an issue so long as there is plenty of space for people to move away to find their own 2m bubble to recover in - but the guidelines do say it should be away from the start.
However, at the start you have the officials, the people starting, people in the start boxes, people queuing to enter the start boxes, the people who have arrived ten minutes early and so on. This can quickly become a sizeable gathering - even at the smallest of events so you need to restrict the rate at which people arrive at the scene.
It is also important that people can start at a greater rate than they arrive even a peak times, otherwise a queue will form. So you have to have spare start slots.
However, at the start you have the officials, the people starting, people in the start boxes, people queuing to enter the start boxes, the people who have arrived ten minutes early and so on. This can quickly become a sizeable gathering - even at the smallest of events so you need to restrict the rate at which people arrive at the scene.
It is also important that people can start at a greater rate than they arrive even a peak times, otherwise a queue will form. So you have to have spare start slots.
- pete.owens
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Re: Preparing for a restart.
It does seem that these rules are unnecessarily over-prescriptive. Recent weeks have seen distanced queues of dozens outside shops, and even though 'indoors' they don't restrict entry to one per minute; once up to capacity it is "one out, one in", so for large shops say one every 10-15 seconds.
You can visit a pub/restaurant without booking, give your details on arrival, and sit at a table with up to 5 others from different households, indoors, for a few hours, only 2m away (or even 1m with mitigation) from a table of another 6 people. This clearly shows how the government intend a 'gathering of no more than 6' to be interpreted.
But even in another 2-3 weeks we are going to be far more restricted than either shops or pubs are today:
You can visit a pub/restaurant without booking, give your details on arrival, and sit at a table with up to 5 others from different households, indoors, for a few hours, only 2m away (or even 1m with mitigation) from a table of another 6 people. This clearly shows how the government intend a 'gathering of no more than 6' to be interpreted.
But even in another 2-3 weeks we are going to be far more restricted than either shops or pubs are today:
- pre-registration only. (It isn't clear if even small club-only activities, with say 15 people turning up over 30 minutes, are permitted without pre-registration and allocating start blocks)
- only one person starting per minute
- only 10 people per 15 minutes, and allocated starts. Nowadays the only events that tend to have continual crowds at the start are those with allocated starts (whether minute or block) - because people turn up early / don't wear a watch / don't know if clocks are real time; those that are "turn up and go" typically have a queue for the first start but after that almost none at all
- starting say 3-4 people, already distanced 2+m apart in lanes, outdoors, at say 10 second intervals, in different directions, and then repeating it a minute later would offer perhaps only 1% of the transmission risk of an indoor table in a pub, as above, but isn't permitted!
- Snail
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Re: Preparing for a restart.
What snail said.
- yted
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Re: Preparing for a restart.
Personally I am very happy for guidelines/rules to be much more restrictive than pubs. Going to a pub or cafe (indoors) seems quite a risky thing to do, and reports I've read say that the majority of UK population feel the same and wont be going just yet. Orienteers of course are mostly over 50 so we'll need to well exceed the social distancing standards of pubs to reassure many of our members.
Pre-entry for all events: That's good. As well as reducing the risk, it reduces workload on the day for the organisers, organising events may become more stressful and/or complicated, so that is helpful. Those of us who like to leave entry until the last minute can cope with risking the odd lost entry fee for the next few months, especially if clubs leave online entry open until one or two days before the event.
The start restrictions - I think clubs can work with this too - just have different starts, accept that the first control might be a non technical path run to start perhaps?
I'd like volunteers at these events to be invisible. I don't like the idea of breathing into a results tent towards a volunteer, even at 2 metres. As an organiser, I don't like the idea of asking people to put themselves at risk, even if the risk is small. At least in pubs and shops people are being paid (probably not enough, but that's another argument). Maybe event officials could sit out of sight in a car maybe? Could this be done, that everything is completely DIY? Turn up, go to your start at the pre-allocated start time, run, finish, download, go home? Post event results and chit chat via a zoom call?
Pre-entry for all events: That's good. As well as reducing the risk, it reduces workload on the day for the organisers, organising events may become more stressful and/or complicated, so that is helpful. Those of us who like to leave entry until the last minute can cope with risking the odd lost entry fee for the next few months, especially if clubs leave online entry open until one or two days before the event.
The start restrictions - I think clubs can work with this too - just have different starts, accept that the first control might be a non technical path run to start perhaps?
I'd like volunteers at these events to be invisible. I don't like the idea of breathing into a results tent towards a volunteer, even at 2 metres. As an organiser, I don't like the idea of asking people to put themselves at risk, even if the risk is small. At least in pubs and shops people are being paid (probably not enough, but that's another argument). Maybe event officials could sit out of sight in a car maybe? Could this be done, that everything is completely DIY? Turn up, go to your start at the pre-allocated start time, run, finish, download, go home? Post event results and chit chat via a zoom call?
- SeanC
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Re: Preparing for a restart.
Unfortunately sporting NGBs are stuck with the DCMS's more restrictive guidance.Snail wrote:It does seem that these rules are unnecessarily over-prescriptive.
You can visit a pub/restaurant without booking, give your details on arrival, and sit at a table with up to 5 others from different households, indoors, for a few hours, only 2m away (or even 1m with mitigation) from a table of another 6 people. This clearly shows how the government intend a 'gathering of no more than 6' to be interpreted.
The disappointing aspect is that although we can organise orienteering safely within govemment guidelines, our own NGB is imposing rather more restrictive rules.
Or go to the pub down the road!Snail wrote: Turn up, go to your start at the pre-allocated start time, run, finish, download, go home? Post event results and chit chat via a zoom call?
- maprun
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Re: Preparing for a restart.
Snail wrote:But there is no obvious reason for a start to be any less busy than the finish. 3 starts would permit 240 starters in 2 hours are apparently acceptable. But this impies on average 1 person every 30 seconds at a single finish. And in practice there will be some larger and some much smaller gaps between finishers.
The difference is at the start people stand still for a few minutes in start boxes. At the finish people can be encouraged to move away - back to their cars, download etc.
I guess a queue could build up a download, but this can be a proper 2m apart queue.
- iainwp
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Re: Preparing for a restart.
Obviously a lot of work has gone into producing these guidelines so big kudos to BO for that.
My concern is how long before government restrictions are further eased and the guidelines become out of date? I've heard that it's possible that football matches may be allowed 40% capacity crowds from the start of next season. If so, the guidelines may already be over restrictive by September.
I'm planning an event in September. I'm happy to use 3 (or even 4 starts) if necessary, but will that still be necessary come September?
Is there any indication as to how long these guidelines will apply and/or when the next revision can be expected?
My concern is how long before government restrictions are further eased and the guidelines become out of date? I've heard that it's possible that football matches may be allowed 40% capacity crowds from the start of next season. If so, the guidelines may already be over restrictive by September.
I'm planning an event in September. I'm happy to use 3 (or even 4 starts) if necessary, but will that still be necessary come September?
Is there any indication as to how long these guidelines will apply and/or when the next revision can be expected?
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Homer - diehard
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Re: Preparing for a restart.
Snail wrote:It does seem that these rules are unnecessarily over-prescriptive. Recent weeks have seen distanced queues of dozens outside shops, and even though 'indoors' they don't restrict entry to one per minute; once up to capacity it is "one out, one in", so for large shops say one every 10-15 seconds.
And those shops spent weeks organising all this, finding space and marking out distanced spaces for people to queue in, organising one-way systems through the shops, installing perspex screens at the checkouts. Just how much space and effort do you envision setting aside to mark all this up? Far easier if you are allocating start blocks to ensure people do not arrive at a greater rate than you can handle.
You can visit a pub/restaurant without booking, give your details on arrival, and sit at a table with up to 5 others from different households, indoors, for a few hours, only 2m away (or even 1m with mitigation) from a table of another 6 people. This clearly shows how the government intend a 'gathering of no more than 6' to be interpreted.
This clearly shows that the government has bowed to pressure from the industry to let them operate under unsafe conditions. And the worry always was - if make special cases to allow pubs do this and airlines do that then everyone will be abandoning social distancing completely. Most people I know will not be visiting a pub anytime soon.
But even in another 2-3 weeks we are going to be far more restricted than either shops or pubs are today:
Really? - from next week we will have to wear masks in shops.
- pre-registration only. (It isn't clear if even small club-only activities, with say 15 people turning up over 30 minutes, are permitted without pre-registration and allocating start blocks)
- only one person starting per minute
- only 10 people per 15 minutes, and allocated starts.
Without pre-entry how do you know that only 15 people will turn up and won't all arrive at the same time?
Nowadays the only events that tend to have continual crowds at the start are those with allocated starts (whether minute or block) - because people turn up early / don't wear a watch / don't know if clocks are real time; those that are "turn up and go" typically have a queue for the first start but after that almost none at all
Pretty much every event I go to involves a gathering of some nature at the start - small or large - timed or punching starts. Even with the restrictions 10 people turn up for their 15 minute start block plus one or two early arrivals plus an official and you have a gathering of double the government limit.
starting say 3-4 people, already distanced 2+m apart in lanes, outdoors, at say 10 second intervals, in different directions, and then repeating it a minute later would offer perhaps only 1% of the transmission risk of an indoor table in a pub, as above, but isn't permitted!
Have you ever acted as a start official for a chasing start event?
It is not where they are going afterwards, but marshalling that sheer number of people though the system - getting them all in the correct places in the right order and so on. Even without queuing and everybody arriving pretty much on time and everything running optimally you would expect to be around for at least 5 minutes between arriving and setting off on the course. If you are starting 4 per minute then that means at least 20 competitors and several officials all in the same area. People will be looking for the clear station, for the hand sanitiser, working out where the lane is for their course is and so on. And that is with everything running smoothly. The slightest hiocup, a batch of runners wanting to run the same course and soon you have double that number. There is no way you can handle that number of people while guaranteeing social distancing.
The disappointing aspect is that although we can organise orienteering safely within govemment guidelines, our own NGB is imposing rather more restrictive rules. :
The BOF rules are a sensible and practical means of organising events while meeting government guidelines. They may be different from shops, but they are not more onerous.
- pete.owens
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Re: Preparing for a restart.
Homer wrote:Obviously a lot of work has gone into producing these guidelines so big kudos to BO for that.
My concern is how long before government restrictions are further eased and the guidelines become out of date?
I think it is more likely that restrictions will be tightened. We haven't really got the virus under control properly, and it looks like infection rates have started to edge up since the pubs were reopened.
It could be a different case in Scotland, where new infections are in single figures.
- pete.owens
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Re: Preparing for a restart.
[quote="pete.owens"]...Without pre-entry how do you know that only 15 people will turn up and won't all arrive at the same time? ... [quote].
If I normally get 10-12 people, it is a not unreasonable assumption to expect up to about 15. So now 15 people have to email a pre-entry, with say a start block preference; then the organiser allocates them to blocks between say 18:00 and 19:00 and emails them all back. Around here, no way are they are all going to arrive in the car park for their allocated start time! It depends at a minimum on when they get way from work, and what the traffic/weather is like (which can easily add 30 minutes). Some will arrive up to 30 minutes early - but even if no one else is present should in theory now wait for their allocated slot. Some will arrive 30 minutes late. Possibly, even with allocated slots, all 15 will arrive in the car park at the same time!
And what if they do? It isn't difficult for 15 people to self-manage and respect 2m distancing until the start is free. There are some venues where that could happen even with 50 people.
You are effectively assuming that experienced orienteers are all irresponsible, and that unless they are 'managed' individually by the organiser they will deliberately flout the governnment guidelines and turn up at the start en masse. I like to think that most are very much the opposite - and that the very few who aren't will be readily be called out by the majority without having to be nannied by the organiser.
If I normally get 10-12 people, it is a not unreasonable assumption to expect up to about 15. So now 15 people have to email a pre-entry, with say a start block preference; then the organiser allocates them to blocks between say 18:00 and 19:00 and emails them all back. Around here, no way are they are all going to arrive in the car park for their allocated start time! It depends at a minimum on when they get way from work, and what the traffic/weather is like (which can easily add 30 minutes). Some will arrive up to 30 minutes early - but even if no one else is present should in theory now wait for their allocated slot. Some will arrive 30 minutes late. Possibly, even with allocated slots, all 15 will arrive in the car park at the same time!
And what if they do? It isn't difficult for 15 people to self-manage and respect 2m distancing until the start is free. There are some venues where that could happen even with 50 people.
You are effectively assuming that experienced orienteers are all irresponsible, and that unless they are 'managed' individually by the organiser they will deliberately flout the governnment guidelines and turn up at the start en masse. I like to think that most are very much the opposite - and that the very few who aren't will be readily be called out by the majority without having to be nannied by the organiser.
- Snail
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Re: Preparing for a restart.
Snail wrote:pete.owens wrote:...Without pre-entry how do you know that only 15 people will turn up and won't all arrive at the same time? ....
If I normally get 10-12 people, it is a not unreasonable assumption to expect up to about 15. So now 15 people have to email a pre-entry, with say a start block preference; then the organiser allocates them to blocks between say 18:00 and 19:00 and emails them all back.
Indeed - and unless they all express the same start preference that is no problem. They email you saying they expect to arrive at 7:30 you reply back that is fine - or if that is too onerous you set it up on a pre-entry system which allows them to reserve and pay for their preferred start slot if that slot is available.
We are dealing with a serious epidemic here and people are complaining about the slightest risk management measures.Around here, no way are they are all going to arrive in the car park for their allocated start time! It depends at a minimum on when they get way from work, and what the traffic/weather is like (which can easily add 30 minutes). Some will arrive up to 30 minutes early - but even if no one else is present should in theory now wait for their allocated slot.
And that is why you need to allow spare slots in each block. So long as everybody is not aiming to arrive at exactly the same time those who arrive early will balance out those that arrive late and you can handle it. If all 30 rock up at the same time then you would have a problem.Some will arrive 30 minutes late. Possibly, even with allocated slots, all 15 will arrive in the car park at the same time!
Yes, in theory you can imagine a strange situation where traffic holds up that delays all those aiming to start early while simultaneously everyone aiming to turn up late manage to skip of work early.And what if they do? It isn't difficult for 15 people to self-manage and respect 2m distancing until the start is free.
So basically, you as organiser want to abdicate entirely from your responsibility to organise your event safely and simply assume that the people turning up will deal with any problems.You are effectively assuming that experienced orienteers are all irresponsible,
You certainly doing your best to convince me that you are.
- pete.owens
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Re: Preparing for a restart.
So, where's the first orienteering event going to be? Is there a club actually putting on a race on Saturday 1st or Sunday 2nd of August?
We really should follow the example of hairdressers and put on a night-o with starts from midnight to 1am
We really should follow the example of hairdressers and put on a night-o with starts from midnight to 1am
- Arnold
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Re: Preparing for a restart.
First o event might be in Scotland - events of up to 30 people per hour allowed from today (as far as I understand).
- Big Jon
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Re: Preparing for a restart.
Is this also BOF’s understanding?
- Arnold
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