It's a reasonable point about a family of 4. I think there are ways round this. Clubs (who I know often have some decent reserves) could do long term hires for their members - say for a year. Pricing could be flexible and reflect local issues - eg once you've got your hire pay (by bank transfer) hire fees when you've used it for events. That would work for the casual member. For the regulars - I think it's time to pay for contactless.
Hiring at events is a risk point for volunteers which we should avoid.
I see this next few months or a year or so as a period where the risk mitigation will mean we won't be recruiting lots of new members - just keeping the sport ticking along with its existing club members. I'm normally as enthusiastic as anyone for casual orienteering, sport for all etc, but I don't feel enthusiastic for organising events with 100+ non members and long queues for EOD like our new year's day event this year. I'm quite sure though that once the virus is gone we can get many of those casual people back and lots of new ones.
Coronavirus dilemma 1
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Re: Coronavirus dilemma 1
Re SIAC and usage at the control site, whenever I have used it, seen people use be they club or elite (WOC races etc) very few runners use the "wave" motion i.e. they waft the SI card over the control and keep running. Most people "slap" the SI card on the control, raise it up to their ear which is on their face! - a No No for Covid to check the beep.
So using SIAC actually increases not decreases the spread of any covid type droplets from a control directly to someone's face.
You are better dibbing with a standard si card rather than sticking the SIAC card in your face.
So ban SIAC and stick with conventional SI punching.
So using SIAC actually increases not decreases the spread of any covid type droplets from a control directly to someone's face.
You are better dibbing with a standard si card rather than sticking the SIAC card in your face.
So ban SIAC and stick with conventional SI punching.
- PhilJ
- green
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Re: Coronavirus dilemma 1
In our club I think the membership split is around 15% contactless, 45% contact, 40% no card at all. I guess this will partly reflect the frequency of their participation, with the first group being the more enthusiastic, and the last those who only participate a few time a year. Going contactless only might restrict participants, and also volunteers, significantly.
I tend towards the opposite view to SeanC. Committted orienteers ar likely to return however long the break. It is the less committed members who we may lose completely, as they drift away to other sports and pastimes, and take a long time to build up again.
I tend towards the opposite view to SeanC. Committted orienteers ar likely to return however long the break. It is the less committed members who we may lose completely, as they drift away to other sports and pastimes, and take a long time to build up again.
- Snail
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Re: Coronavirus dilemma 1
For a casual orienteer member maybe going to half a dozen events per year typically a long term card hire could even be free. That kind of generosity goes down well and might make people feel more committed to the club. I do agree that there is an increased risk of these people not staying in the sport at the level they are at, but at least we know who they are and can make an effort to smooth things over.
For the casual non member - I've changed my view on this over the years. I see a lot of people who are keen on orienteering once or twice a year. They're never going to join a club, but, so long as our publicity is good, I do think it's easy to get these people back. For these people it's not a habit so we always have to push it to them via Facebook, email etc.
I'm a contactless 'waver'. PhilJ - I wasn't aware that people slap. I suppose now we need a 'Don't Slap - Wave' message to competitors - at least it's a better slogan than "Be Alert"
Whether or not contactless only is practical or desirable (and I'm not sure), I am of the opinion unless people convince me otherwise that:
- Regular orienteers in SI areas (who can afford it) should upgrade to contactless if they haven't already.
- Clubs shouldn't be hiring cards on the day, and instead be offering long term hires to their members (and perhaps reducing club membership fees but that's another topic).
For the casual non member - I've changed my view on this over the years. I see a lot of people who are keen on orienteering once or twice a year. They're never going to join a club, but, so long as our publicity is good, I do think it's easy to get these people back. For these people it's not a habit so we always have to push it to them via Facebook, email etc.
I'm a contactless 'waver'. PhilJ - I wasn't aware that people slap. I suppose now we need a 'Don't Slap - Wave' message to competitors - at least it's a better slogan than "Be Alert"
Whether or not contactless only is practical or desirable (and I'm not sure), I am of the opinion unless people convince me otherwise that:
- Regular orienteers in SI areas (who can afford it) should upgrade to contactless if they haven't already.
- Clubs shouldn't be hiring cards on the day, and instead be offering long term hires to their members (and perhaps reducing club membership fees but that's another topic).
- SeanC
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Re: Coronavirus dilemma 1
Perhaps SI UK will offer SIAC cards at cost price?
Or BOF could apply for a grant to subsidise the purchase of several thousand of them for BOF members?
Or BOF could apply for a grant to subsidise the purchase of several thousand of them for BOF members?
- Big Jon
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Re: Coronavirus dilemma 1
Big Jon wrote:Perhaps SI UK will offer SIAC cards at cost price?
Or BOF could apply for a grant to subsidise the purchase of several thousand of them for BOF members?
They will have lost a lot of money due to cancelled events, I doubt they can afford to give away cost-price cards as well.
Do we even need to be punching? Can't we just have events for the enjoyment of orienteering?
- Hermes
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Re: Coronavirus dilemma 1
Hermes wrote:Do we even need to be punching? Can't we just have events for the enjoyment of orienteering?
Depends if you want a sport or a recreation.
Go orienteering in Lithuania......... best in the world:)
Real Name - Gross
http://www.scottishotours.info
Real Name - Gross
http://www.scottishotours.info
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Re: Coronavirus dilemma 1
Big Jon wrote:BOF could apply for a grant to subsidise the purchase of several thousand of them for BOF members?
Unfortunately I wouldn't be surprised if any grant arrived after the vaccine.
A bulk purchase might be possible though. I think that the majority of clubs have sufficient reserves to buy a fair few SI cards - I suspect at least £5000 reserves above that absolutely necessary is commonplace. BO have reserves too which could be used as an emergency grant or loan to clubs not so fortunate.
If we're not hiring them out on the day, we will have some (possibly enough) to long term hire to club members.
Regular orienteers who are lucky enough to have retained their wage or pension income don't need the subsidy - I suspect most of us have saved the cost of a new SI card by not going orienteering for the past 7 weeks.
- SeanC
- god
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Re: Coronavirus dilemma 1
Re. Grants
https://www.sportengland.org/news/195-million-package-help-sport-and-physical-activity-through-coronavirus
Although I think applications are due in today! Get applying!
Re Gloves
Waste of time according to the experts some suggest they do more harm than good
https://www.sportengland.org/news/195-million-package-help-sport-and-physical-activity-through-coronavirus
Although I think applications are due in today! Get applying!
Re Gloves
Waste of time according to the experts some suggest they do more harm than good
To oblivion and beyond....
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buzz - addict
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Re: Coronavirus dilemma 1
This has veered a little off topic, but the ownership model for electronic punching is a little bonkers when you think about it - on any given Sunday, the vast majority of the SI/Emit cards owned by clubs and individuals are going to be sitting idle.
A better model would be for someone to purchase a national pool of SIACs and allow clubs to hire them, so they can then be loaned out to everyone entering a club's event as part of the entry fee. You could give clubs the choice of a "receive Monday, return Friday" or "receive Friday, return Monday" hire periods. It would be interesting to figure out how many cards would be needed to meet typical demand - I'd guess no more than 5,000, and probably quite a lot less than that.
If you were doing this on a non-profit basis then, even with depreciation, shipping (they're not exactly heavy or bulky), and paying someone to do the tedious job of packaging the cards up and checking them when they return, I'm pretty sure you could get hire fee sufficiently low that it made more economic sense from both an individual and a club perspective than purchasing a card. It's the initial purchase cost that is the challenge!
A better model would be for someone to purchase a national pool of SIACs and allow clubs to hire them, so they can then be loaned out to everyone entering a club's event as part of the entry fee. You could give clubs the choice of a "receive Monday, return Friday" or "receive Friday, return Monday" hire periods. It would be interesting to figure out how many cards would be needed to meet typical demand - I'd guess no more than 5,000, and probably quite a lot less than that.
If you were doing this on a non-profit basis then, even with depreciation, shipping (they're not exactly heavy or bulky), and paying someone to do the tedious job of packaging the cards up and checking them when they return, I'm pretty sure you could get hire fee sufficiently low that it made more economic sense from both an individual and a club perspective than purchasing a card. It's the initial purchase cost that is the challenge!
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: Coronavirus dilemma 1
Scott wrote:A better model would be for someone to purchase a national pool of SIACs and allow clubs to hire them
Good move Batman. In my work (guiding) I regularly use individual headsets. I costed then once and they were way too expensive, never mind the hassle of charging / cleaning etc.
We actually hire from a US company with a base in Germany who dispatch them to Stockholm, St Petersburgh, Helsinki etc via TNT / DHL and collect once they've been used.
Hire cost & cost of lost items only.... works great.
Only problem with SI would be someone using the data tied to the serial number tp produce whatever
Go orienteering in Lithuania......... best in the world:)
Real Name - Gross
http://www.scottishotours.info
Real Name - Gross
http://www.scottishotours.info
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Gross - god
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Re: Coronavirus dilemma 1
Sounds like am item for the next BO board meeting. Still plenty of money in the reserves and part of BO's measures to help mitigate Covid risks at events.Scott wrote:A better model would be for someone to purchase a national pool of ea:SIACs and allow clubs to hire them, so they can then be loaned out to everyone entering a club's event as part of the entry fee.
- maprun
- diehard
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Re: Coronavirus dilemma 1
Scott wrote:.A better model would be for someone to purchase a national pool of SIACs and allow clubs to hire them, so they can then be loaned out to everyone entering a club's event as part of the entry fee.
Like Sportident do?
https://www.sportident.com/documents/se ... s_2020.pdf
Or in the SE, SLOW.
- NeilC
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Re: Coronavirus dilemma 1
Well, yes, although if you were doing it on a not-for-profit basis I would really hope that you could get the hire fee down to a lot less than 5% of the purchase cost.
I fear that it may be a little too late to go down this road for SIAC - it's likely that too many individuals and clubs have already invested in cards to make it worthwhile - but I am optimistic that the UK orienteering community might embrace a similar approach for the next big thing. GPS tracking, perhaps?
I fear that it may be a little too late to go down this road for SIAC - it's likely that too many individuals and clubs have already invested in cards to make it worthwhile - but I am optimistic that the UK orienteering community might embrace a similar approach for the next big thing. GPS tracking, perhaps?
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: Coronavirus dilemma 1
Scott wrote:Well, yes, although if you were doing it on a not-for-profit basis I would really hope that you could get the hire fee down to a lot less than 5% of the purchase cost.
I fear that it may be a little too late to go down this road for SIAC - it's likely that too many individuals and clubs have already invested in cards to make it worthwhile - but I am optimistic that the UK orienteering community might embrace a similar approach for the next big thing. GPS tracking, perhaps?
You already can hire trackers (from ScotJOS) at very reasonable rates... Though there is a bit of learning to set up the events etc...
- Big Jon
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