Insurance: Good news
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Re: Insurance: Good news
I suspect many people are put off standing as directors because of the time involved in travelling to and from meetings. If BO wants representatives from NI,Wales & Scotland, offering teleconferencing might be just the ticket.
- maprun
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Re: Insurance: Good news
maprun wrote:I suspect many people are put off standing as directors because of the time involved in travelling to and from meetings. If BO wants representatives from NI,Wales & Scotland, offering teleconferencing might be just the ticket.
A proper teleconference facility (ie for all to use) would save a vast amount of money and time for all concerned. However if only the "outliers" use it then they will miss out on much of the informal discussion etc that goes on at meetings.
- Big Jon
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Re: Insurance: Good news
graeme wrote:A new entry system? Really? There are enough of them already, and if it ever gets united to a single one it will be eventor, not some BOF startup.
I agree that investing in anything other than eventor is going to be a waste of time. There isn't a lack of options for pre-entry systems but what is missing is a unified place where you can access everything you need for an event.
- mattp
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Re: Insurance: Good news
Big Jon wrote:A proper teleconference facility (ie for all to use) would save a vast amount of money and time for all concerned. However if only the "outliers" use it then they will miss out on much of the informal discussion etc that goes on at meetings.
As someone who has been a "Skype outlier" for more IOF meetings than I care to remember, I couldn't agree more!
It's also more difficult to contribute if you're talking to a room full of people you can't see as you miss all the visual feedbacks needed for successful dialogue.
You need reliable broadband too ...
- DJM
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Re: Insurance: Good news
Looking back at Scott's point
Yes I do completely understand the motivation for trying to solve this problem with an IT solution and have experienced similar but less extreme situations at some of our local events.
I think such a project might work better if the aim is defined without the solution.
The aim being I assume - "for events where there are a lot of EOD newcomers, what is the best way BO can support clubs".
The problems aren't just about queuing, it's also about a large number of people turning up needing help, and a single "meet and greet" helper can easily be overwhelmed.
It's an interesting problem because it only affects a tiny percentage of clubs (unfortunately). Most clubs aren't doing much effective publicity at non-members so will only get a handful of non members who find out about events via word of mouth, website etc. For these clubs EOD is best as this gives the meet and greeter an excuse to strike up a conversation and make the newbie feel welcome. I'm sure we'd all want more clubs to be like TVOC, SLOW, SYO etc and get stacks of newbies in and this is where a lot of non members can be stressful for everyone. Maybe that's why some clubs don't do much publicity?
EOD by paper might still be the best way for a medium number of non members - say 20 to 50. We don't see queues of an hour. At our local events we use autodownload for members with their own dibbers, and for non members, we just ask them to fill out a form and a volunteer types in the details whilst they're out on their run. This means they don't have to queue, though it would be nice if volunteers didn't have to type in their details.
This is really part of a wider problem of events not always being designed for new orienteers. I've been using Facebook to help them. I always post a previous copy of the event map, pictures of equipment, what to wear etc on the Facebook event which I know makes things easier for everyone on the day, plus newbies ask questions - but maybe there is a better way? See our new year's day event for an example https://www.facebook.com/events/587385208680658. As a club we've changed things - we always give everyone in a group a map, and always ensure that everyone gets a map key if there isn't one on the map.
I think an in depth study at some of these beginner popular events would be really useful to look for all ways to make them run more smoothly - not just an entries system. There could be easier and cheaper ways. Whilst they are there they could do some research on who the non members are and how likely they are to return and how often. It sounds like the sort of project a BO development officer could do by visiting such events and talking to competitors and volunteers, which would cost money but could easily pay back for everyone.
It's also vital to minimise the amount of entry-on-the-day queuing - I helped at one Level D event this year where a very large number of newcomers meant that the queue for registration stretched for over an hour. The more of registration process we can get done in advance, the easier that will be.
Yes I do completely understand the motivation for trying to solve this problem with an IT solution and have experienced similar but less extreme situations at some of our local events.
I think such a project might work better if the aim is defined without the solution.
The aim being I assume - "for events where there are a lot of EOD newcomers, what is the best way BO can support clubs".
The problems aren't just about queuing, it's also about a large number of people turning up needing help, and a single "meet and greet" helper can easily be overwhelmed.
It's an interesting problem because it only affects a tiny percentage of clubs (unfortunately). Most clubs aren't doing much effective publicity at non-members so will only get a handful of non members who find out about events via word of mouth, website etc. For these clubs EOD is best as this gives the meet and greeter an excuse to strike up a conversation and make the newbie feel welcome. I'm sure we'd all want more clubs to be like TVOC, SLOW, SYO etc and get stacks of newbies in and this is where a lot of non members can be stressful for everyone. Maybe that's why some clubs don't do much publicity?
EOD by paper might still be the best way for a medium number of non members - say 20 to 50. We don't see queues of an hour. At our local events we use autodownload for members with their own dibbers, and for non members, we just ask them to fill out a form and a volunteer types in the details whilst they're out on their run. This means they don't have to queue, though it would be nice if volunteers didn't have to type in their details.
This is really part of a wider problem of events not always being designed for new orienteers. I've been using Facebook to help them. I always post a previous copy of the event map, pictures of equipment, what to wear etc on the Facebook event which I know makes things easier for everyone on the day, plus newbies ask questions - but maybe there is a better way? See our new year's day event for an example https://www.facebook.com/events/587385208680658. As a club we've changed things - we always give everyone in a group a map, and always ensure that everyone gets a map key if there isn't one on the map.
I think an in depth study at some of these beginner popular events would be really useful to look for all ways to make them run more smoothly - not just an entries system. There could be easier and cheaper ways. Whilst they are there they could do some research on who the non members are and how likely they are to return and how often. It sounds like the sort of project a BO development officer could do by visiting such events and talking to competitors and volunteers, which would cost money but could easily pay back for everyone.
- SeanC
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Re: Insurance: Good news
Big Jon wrote: However if only the "outliers" use it then they will miss out on much of the informal discussion etc that goes on at meetings.
Whereas now "outliers" miss out because they aren't on the board AT ALL. It's no coincidence that everyone on the Board is from England...
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Re: Insurance: Good news
I know which event Scott is referring to, with the hour long queues, as I organised it! (Thanks for your help Scott!). It was TVOC's Waddesdon Manor event in October - a conservative estimate was around 750 people, at least 650 of which were newcomers. The event was solely publicised via Facebook, resulting in over 5,500 people clicking "interested" in the event, and around 750 turning up. We normally get around 100-150 newcomers per event, so we have a good team of meet and greeters and generally cope pretty well with lot of newcomers, but this event took us by surprise and did result in some problems. Not least the hour long queue, but running out of dibbers and eventually letting people go for an untimed run with just a map.
We do a no-obligation "reserve a map in advance" system, which did get, I think, about 100 or so reservations - that helps a lot, as it avoids filling in a form on the day. We do push that quite a bit, but maybe having a slightly cheaper entry fee for people who do that could encourage even more to pre-register.
Generally though, I'm not a fan of pre-registering for newcomers, as, like others have said, many newcomers will make a decision whether to come on the day - depending on other commitments, weather, children etc (particularly weather). Having to pre-register is likely to result in far fewer newcomers.
On the subject of sending Level D results/entry numbers to BO, we do that and always have done, as far as I'm aware - I'm not "rule savvy" enough to know when that has to be done, but I thought that was the norm - obviously not, reading this thread. I do think it should be, for participation figures.
We do a no-obligation "reserve a map in advance" system, which did get, I think, about 100 or so reservations - that helps a lot, as it avoids filling in a form on the day. We do push that quite a bit, but maybe having a slightly cheaper entry fee for people who do that could encourage even more to pre-register.
Generally though, I'm not a fan of pre-registering for newcomers, as, like others have said, many newcomers will make a decision whether to come on the day - depending on other commitments, weather, children etc (particularly weather). Having to pre-register is likely to result in far fewer newcomers.
On the subject of sending Level D results/entry numbers to BO, we do that and always have done, as far as I'm aware - I'm not "rule savvy" enough to know when that has to be done, but I thought that was the norm - obviously not, reading this thread. I do think it should be, for participation figures.
- MikeShires
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Re: Insurance: Good news
Waddesdon Manor queue
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Re: Insurance: Good news
As someone who is usually involved in typing in the 100+ entrants at one of my club's Saturday Series, I would love a way of simplifying things.
We currently use a pre-registration system, provided by a helpful neighbouring club. Most newcomers do not use it. And if they do, then not infrequently they then fill in a paper form as well! It is mainly used by existing BOF members, who are a doddle to enter in any case (with their SI card or BOF number). So sadly I do not think a pre-registration system is the answer.
I do though like Roadrunner's suggestion. Encourage newcomers to pre-register their details on a BO system, just once, which gives them a BOF number (even though they are not members). They can print off their BOF number, perhaps with a barcode, as per parkrun. When they come to the event, their details are then on the BOF database.
So entrants can register with their SI card, or with their BOF number, or by scanning their barcode if the club has invested in scanners. That would be far simpler than typing the same details in each time a non-member comes to our event. And it avoids typing errors, unreadable scribbles on entry forms, etc.
It would also give BO a database of these occasional orienteers. If we capture appropriate permission when they sign up, this can be used to mail them an occasional newsletter to encourage them to return, to provide a database of their results etc.
And as MikeShires says, we always submit our Saturday Series results to BO. It's a very easy task, so I really don't understand why most clubs don't do it.
We currently use a pre-registration system, provided by a helpful neighbouring club. Most newcomers do not use it. And if they do, then not infrequently they then fill in a paper form as well! It is mainly used by existing BOF members, who are a doddle to enter in any case (with their SI card or BOF number). So sadly I do not think a pre-registration system is the answer.
I do though like Roadrunner's suggestion. Encourage newcomers to pre-register their details on a BO system, just once, which gives them a BOF number (even though they are not members). They can print off their BOF number, perhaps with a barcode, as per parkrun. When they come to the event, their details are then on the BOF database.
So entrants can register with their SI card, or with their BOF number, or by scanning their barcode if the club has invested in scanners. That would be far simpler than typing the same details in each time a non-member comes to our event. And it avoids typing errors, unreadable scribbles on entry forms, etc.
It would also give BO a database of these occasional orienteers. If we capture appropriate permission when they sign up, this can be used to mail them an occasional newsletter to encourage them to return, to provide a database of their results etc.
And as MikeShires says, we always submit our Saturday Series results to BO. It's a very easy task, so I really don't understand why most clubs don't do it.
- Alun
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Re: Insurance: Good news
MikeShires wrote:On the subject of sending Level D results/entry numbers to BO, we do that and always have done, as far as I'm aware - I'm not "rule savvy" enough to know when that has to be done, but I thought that was the norm - obviously not, reading this thread. I do think it should be, for participation figures.
Uploading results and providing participation numbers are two different processes and the access permissions to carry them out belong to two different roles within a club. The participation numbers will be chased for by BO staff.
Many level Ds use a format that is not compatible with the results database - particularly anything that introduces a score element. If you want to "win" a score event then run straight to the start - it ranks competitors by time taken as it has no concept of anything other than time to determine the winner.
- Marian
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Re: Insurance: Good news
Alun wrote:As someone who is usually involved in typing in the 100+ entrants at one of my club's Saturday Series, I would love a way of simplifying things.
With most entrants using registered SI cards there is no need to enter them into the computer. Just wait until they download and the system picks up their details from the database. The only ones you need to type into the system are those hiring dibbers.
- pete.owens
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Re: Insurance: Good news
Unfortunately (or fortunately), that's most entrants! Certainly several hundred at Waddesdon, and we often get more IND entries than club member entries at our Saturday Series.pete.owens wrote:The only ones you need to type into the system are those hiring dibbers.
- MikeShires
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Re: Insurance: Good news
Mike beat me to reply. But his reply exactly highlights the issue. For us, registration at our Saturday Series is much more work than at a level C or level B event. And it is hard enough to encourage newcomers to fill in our entry form in anything like a complete fashion, let alone for it to be readable as well. That means we have to type the data in whilst the individual is standing by the computer, to try to ensure the details are (broadly) correct.
That is why I would love some form of database, like that for parkrun, where people could enter their details before they come to an event - any event, so they enter it just once. That registration system can also capture some safety information (their contact details, and those of a friend or relative, etc). If we can encourage the bulk of newcomers to do that, we can then deal with the rest on the day.
That is why I would love some form of database, like that for parkrun, where people could enter their details before they come to an event - any event, so they enter it just once. That registration system can also capture some safety information (their contact details, and those of a friend or relative, etc). If we can encourage the bulk of newcomers to do that, we can then deal with the rest on the day.
- Alun
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Re: Insurance: Good news
You've got to remember that most of these non members aren't very committed, and likely to go to just one event, maybe one or two a year if you're lucky. At this level of commitment you don't want any barriers. As Mike Shires says, for many orienteering is a spur of the moment thing, perhaps they are invited by their friends the night before. Do we really want to turn people away who haven't registered online? With Parkrun you can at least join in the run even if you've not registered online, of course we wouldn't/couldn't have unregistered orienteers.
We had 80 non members at our mass start new years day event. The registration queue was 5 minutes, the download queue was max 10, even though everyone was turning up and finishing at much the same time. We're using SI though and I don't know what additional challenges EMIT brings.
I really think this is too specific a problem to focus on. The problem should be 'how best to handle non members with the aim of converting the maximum amount to regular (club member) orienteers. I'm convinced there are many things clubs could do. For example I've been to two local events this weekend. Both featured a dark download tent with enough room for one or two standing competitors. Such download tents are fine for experienced orienteers who know people and just want to get their time, but for non members I think clubs need a 'mobile event center', which can be a tent where (weather permitting) you can unzip the sides.
We use these at our local events and it makes such a difference. After download (by a busy volunteer who doesn't have time to chat to competitors) with a sideless tent the newbie has room to chat to Saxons members who can of course promote other events and joining the club. We sometimes have honesty box tea and cakes to encourage this milling around.
I'm sure there are loads of other minor adjustments we could make, and a mini project to gather up and spread such good practice would be a real help.
We had 80 non members at our mass start new years day event. The registration queue was 5 minutes, the download queue was max 10, even though everyone was turning up and finishing at much the same time. We're using SI though and I don't know what additional challenges EMIT brings.
I really think this is too specific a problem to focus on. The problem should be 'how best to handle non members with the aim of converting the maximum amount to regular (club member) orienteers. I'm convinced there are many things clubs could do. For example I've been to two local events this weekend. Both featured a dark download tent with enough room for one or two standing competitors. Such download tents are fine for experienced orienteers who know people and just want to get their time, but for non members I think clubs need a 'mobile event center', which can be a tent where (weather permitting) you can unzip the sides.
We use these at our local events and it makes such a difference. After download (by a busy volunteer who doesn't have time to chat to competitors) with a sideless tent the newbie has room to chat to Saxons members who can of course promote other events and joining the club. We sometimes have honesty box tea and cakes to encourage this milling around.
I'm sure there are loads of other minor adjustments we could make, and a mini project to gather up and spread such good practice would be a real help.
- SeanC
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