Scottish 6 Days
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Re: Scottish 6 Days
As someone else who is red/green colour blind it was certainly not immediately obvious to me what I was meant to do between 11 and 12 on the M60 C30 (Jethros) course. I think I’d decided that the map markings in question couldn’t be much else other than a purple do not cross indication but the colour certainly looked no different to me from the dark green areas directly on the other side of the stream. Even looking at the map now in a good light at home there's not a lot of difference. What finally swung it for me though was the fact that I saw another M60 from my club, who I had caught up, on his way out of 11 heading ESE towards the E crossing point. If there had been a suitable entry in the control descriptions I would have had no such confusion.
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Re: Scottish 6 Days
Freefall wrote:I would have thought... anybody coming to the banks of a river that was 15-20 metres wide might just have glanced at the map and actually wondered why it was marked with a) solid black line and b) purple overprint and questioned if it was a legitimate place to cross.
...and self-evidently you would have been wrong.
I don't think its particularly helpful to worry about who to blame, but it might be useful to help future planners understand what happens in reality.
Plus, for fans of #PathorCrag, can you cross at the SE corner?
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Re: Scottish 6 Days
Freefall wrote:...I would have thought anybody coming to the banks of a river that was 15-20 metres wide might just have glanced at the map and actually wondered why it was marked with a) solid black line and b) purple overprint and questioned if it was a legitimate place to cross. ...
But of course the solid black line doesn't indicate that it is an illegitimate place to cross, just that it might be difficult/impossible!
And as for the purple line, this might be key:
Olsoran wrote:As someone else who is red/green colour blind it was certainly not immediately obvious ... . I think I’d decided that the map markings in question couldn’t be much else other than a purple do not cross indication but the colour certainly looked no different to me from the dark green areas directly on the other side of the stream. ...
It hadn't occurred to me before, but a purple "do not cross" line along a river or other randomly curved feature, particularly if close to patches of dark green, might not be such a good idea. Clearly a proportion of competitors find it very hard to pick out. (ISOM 2017 indicates up to 5-8% of men and 0.5% women in the wider population have colour difficulty, and within those I think red-green is the most prevalent version). Purple lines along straight linear fences/walls, certainly in areas of open / rough open, are probably not an issue.
At Edinchip, with only 2 valid crossing points, it might have been straightforward to either use alternative identically numbered controls or to say "use a marked crossing point".
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Re: Scottish 6 Days
graeme wrote:
Plus, for fans of #PathorCrag, can you cross at the SE corner?
In this case
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Re: Scottish 6 Days
I thought that a black line meant "uncrossable body of water" not difficult or impossible Snail?
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Re: Scottish 6 Days
Freefall wrote:I thought that a black line meant "uncrossable body of water" not difficult or impossible Snail?
It does mean uncrossable. I dont have a paper copy of the map however looks to me like the colour of the water is very light for uncrossable. Could that be where the confusion has arisen? On RG it looks like 50% blue (ie same as the crossable bits) and should be 100% blue for a small area of uncrossable water shouldnt it?
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Re: Scottish 6 Days
Freefall wrote:I thought that a black line meant "uncrossable body of water" not difficult or impossible Snail?
It does mean "uncrossable", but for ISOM maps that means in te sense of "may not be possible to be crossed" or "might require swimming" or "the mapper doesn't recommend it, but you can risk it if you want to" , rather than "prohibited to cross". (Unlike ISSOM maps where it would mean "prohibited to cross", even if dry!)
Similar to ISOM "impassable" fences, walls or cliffs, which can also be crossed if you can find a way to do it.
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Re: Scottish 6 Days
andypat wrote: I dont have a paper copy of the map however looks to me like the colour of the water is very light for uncrossable
I guess they forgot to change the water symbol when they converted the map to ISOM-2017.
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Re: Scottish 6 Days
pete.owens wrote:andypat wrote: I dont have a paper copy of the map however looks to me like the colour of the water is very light for uncrossable
I guess they forgot to change the water symbol when they converted the map to ISOM-2017.
No forgetting anything - map was drawn in ISOM 2017. Usual shade of blue was used for river with the black "uncrossable" banks lines.
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Re: Scottish 6 Days
andypat wrote:
a small proportion of people will ………. not know the rules
Going by some of the recent comments on this thread it appears that some of the greatest brains on Nopesport can't even agree on the interpretation of the rules - so what hope is there for us mere mortals.
Freefall wrote:
I thought it was an excellent leg ...
Yes an excellent leg - to use at a Planner's or Controller's training session as an example of what can go wrong!
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Re: Scottish 6 Days
Big Jon wrote:pete.owens wrote:andypat wrote: I dont have a paper copy of the map however looks to me like the colour of the water is very light for uncrossable
I guess they forgot to change the water symbol when they converted the map to ISOM-2017.
No forgetting anything - map was drawn in ISOM 2017. Usual shade of blue was used for river with the black "uncrossable" banks lines.
In that case it is just using the incorrect symbol. This can be more clearly seen at the small lake/uncrossable marsh combos to the SW. The shade of blue used for the lake is clearly different to the blue marsh stripes.
Last edited by pete.owens on Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scottish 6 Days
Jethro wrote:Going by some of the recent comments on this thread it appears that some of the greatest brains on Nopesport can't even agree on the interpretation of the rules - so what hope is there for us mere mortals.
However, it does appear that the entire cohort of M/W18s fitted with trackers managed to understand the rules.
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Re: Scottish 6 Days
pete.owens wrote:Big Jon wrote:No forgetting anything - map was drawn in ISOM 2017. Usual shade of blue was used for river with the black "uncrossable" banks lines.
In that case it is just using the incorrect symbol. This can be more clearly seen at the small lake/uncrossable marsh combos to the SW. The shade of blue used for the lake is clearly different to the blue marsh stripes.
There are 2 "uncrossable water features" in ISOM2017. One uses 100% blue (uncrossable body of water) whilst the other uses 75% blue (dominant uncrossable body of water). The "uncrossable marsh" uses 100% blue. So it is up to the mapper? to decide if something is "dominant" and uncrossable.
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Re: Scottish 6 Days
Using dark blue to make part of the stream "uncrossable " would have resulted in more people going across in that area - my opinion.
Is the real problem here that some people don't want to accept that their knowledge of the symbols and/or leg planning technique is not ideal, leading them to devise all sorts of justifications why they crossed.
We should be pleased we had a dry week, otherwise that easily crossable stream that was mentioned in final details as a potential safety risk would have been a raging torrent. And then if there had been no marking of it, would the same people be banging on about lack of attention to safety?
Is the real problem here that some people don't want to accept that their knowledge of the symbols and/or leg planning technique is not ideal, leading them to devise all sorts of justifications why they crossed.
We should be pleased we had a dry week, otherwise that easily crossable stream that was mentioned in final details as a potential safety risk would have been a raging torrent. And then if there had been no marking of it, would the same people be banging on about lack of attention to safety?
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Re: Scottish 6 Days
MIE wrote:pete.owens wrote:Big Jon wrote:No forgetting anything - map was drawn in ISOM 2017. Usual shade of blue was used for river with the black "uncrossable" banks lines.
In that case it is just using the incorrect symbol. This can be more clearly seen at the small lake/uncrossable marsh combos to the SW. The shade of blue used for the lake is clearly different to the blue marsh stripes.
There are 2 "uncrossable water features" in ISOM2017. One uses 100% blue (uncrossable body of water) whilst the other uses 75% blue (dominant uncrossable body of water). The "uncrossable marsh" uses 100% blue. So it is up to the mapper? to decide if something is "dominant" and uncrossable.
There is also symbol 301.200 Uncrossable Body of water (Border line) - which is what was used for the river boundary. So there are more than 2 "uncrossable water features" in ISOM2017.
A river that is "uncrossable" today might well be crossable tomorrow (and vice-versa). The river in question is undoubtedly crossable in parts, but how can this be mapped when the water level will affect what is and isn't crossable? Do you want the mappers out the morning of the event measuring depths and deciding whether to use a crossable or uncrossable feature symbol, or do you want the mapper and planner to make decisions based on what is a sensible approach to use of an area - and then expect competitors to read, understand and act sensibly on the information from the map and the ground that they encounter?
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