Great weekend of orienteering in a beautiful setting. Enjoyed it all but thought the planning on Day 2 was particularly good - some longish legs on a Middle race - hooray! Thanks to the many volunteers.
Bit of landmark for me - first time I've been beaten by the now not so 'Mini' Buzz!
Lakes Weekend
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Lakes Weekend
To oblivion and beyond....
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buzz - addict
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Re: Lakes Weekend
buzz wrote:Bit of landmark for me - first time I've been beaten by the now not so 'Mini' Buzz!
First of many times
- Big Jon
- guru
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Re: Lakes Weekend
I too enjoyed the weekend, my thanks to everyone involved.
I was puzzling over the Routegadget thinking something feels odd, but I can't put my finger on it, when I realised the map on RG was without the stony ground (black dots) on the paper map. Is this deliberate? maybe for display on screens?
I was puzzling over the Routegadget thinking something feels odd, but I can't put my finger on it, when I realised the map on RG was without the stony ground (black dots) on the paper map. Is this deliberate? maybe for display on screens?
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Crex - white
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Re: Lakes Weekend
Crex wrote:I was puzzling over the Routegadget thinking something feels odd, but I can't put my finger on it, when I realised the map on RG was without the stony ground (black dots) on the paper map. Is this deliberate? maybe for display on screens?
This threw us as well. It turns out that the black dots are there - if you zoom in far enough you can just about make them out. Unfortunately that sort of pattern doesn't cope very well with conversion to raster image formats.
(Excellent weekend, by the way!)
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: Lakes Weekend
I could only make it down for the first day but I really enjoyed my run on Caw in "typical" Lake District weather. My only comment would be regarding the length - I was the fastest M60 on Blue in ~47mins, the fastest M55/60's on Blue at Stickle Pike were taking ~43 mins. It is hardly a big enough differential between long and middle distance. This seems to be a growing trend in British orienteering with supposed long races becoming not much more than glorified middle distances both in length and style of planning. We seem to have lost the art of good long distance planning.
"O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!"
Robert Burns
To see oursels as others see us!"
Robert Burns
- Jethro
- green
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Re: Lakes Weekend
Jethro wrote: We seem to have lost the art of good long distance planning.
Your course looks like excellent long distance planning to me. Just the 10 controls, challenging nav, route choice. The problem is just that it's far too short - which does seem to have been a feature of a lot of races this spring.
I don't know whether that's the planner or the controller's mistake.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Lakes Weekend
graeme wrote: The problem is just that it's far too short - which does seem to have been a feature of a lot of races this spring.
Black: 10.2km, 670m = 16.9km corrected.
Blue: 5.5km, 430m = 9.8km corrected.
Course length ratio = 9.8/16.9 = 0.58
BOF Rules Appendix B, Section 8 for long courses: Expected elite winning time 67 minutes, Blue course length ratio: 0.56
Black was won in 67:48 by the 19th ranked orienteer in the country.
So from the Rules point of view this appears to be excellent planning.
If the courses are "too short" then:
a) the black EWT in the Rules is too short
b) the Blue course length ratio in the Rules is too low
c) the 19th ranked orienteer in the country does not count as "elite"
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Simon E - green
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Re: Lakes Weekend
Jethro wrote:I could only make it down for the first day but I really enjoyed my run on Caw in "typical" Lake District weather. My only comment would be regarding the length - I was the fastest M60 on Blue in ~47mins, the fastest M55/60's on Blue at Stickle Pike were taking ~43 mins.
Or rather, the fastest M55 ran the brown in 40 mins, which puts it a bit more in perspective.
Looking at the lead times for both days it looks rather more like the middle courses were a tad too long rather that the long courses being too short. When I initially saw how much climbing was involved I thought the course actually going to be too long.
For a top M60 to run the blue course in 47 rather the 53 minutes probably suggests you are an exceptionally strong climber. Other age class leaders seem more in line.
It is hardly a big enough differential between long and middle distance. This seems to be a growing trend in British orienteering with supposed long races becoming not much more than glorified middle distances both in length and style of planning. We seem to have lost the art of good long distance planning.
While I think that trend is true, I don't think it is a valid criticism of the planning last weekend. There were good long route-choice legs on Caw while the Stickle Pike courses featured sustained fine navigation.
- pete.owens
- diehard
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Re: Lakes Weekend
Simon E wrote:If the courses are "too short" then:
AFAIK, we don't publish how long these courses are meant to be. I never ran at WMOC, so was surprised to find that the "Long" course is only meant to be 50mins (M55). I feel rather sure that courses used to be much longer than that. Did something change? If so, are we happy about it? I like longer courses, but I'm not competitive so I'm quite happy to run up.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Lakes Weekend
Simon E wrote:Black: 10.2km, 670m = 16.9km corrected.
Blue: 5.5km, 430m = 9.8km corrected.
Course length ratio = 9.8/16.9 = 0.58
BOF Rules Appendix B, Section 8 for long courses: Expected elite winning time 67 minutes, Blue course length ratio: 0.56
Black was won in 67:48 by the 19th ranked orienteer in the country.
So from the Rules point of view this appears to be excellent planning.
If anything, the Blue course should probably have been shorter - quite a bit of the additional climb on Black was avoidable.
I have to admit I've never really understood why the long distance winning times drop off so steeply. The M35 and M40 courses at BOC are supposed to be two-thirds the length of the M21 one. While I'm coming to terms with the fact that my running performance is going to decline with age, I'm hoping it's not going to deteriorate quite that rapidly.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: Lakes Weekend
I ran Blue and expected the climb to be though, but according to my Garmin I “only” did 255m. Considerable less than what the planner expected.
- KerMit
- string
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Re: Lakes Weekend
That might well have been what the planner expected - the rules say:
(Although note also that GPS watches are generally pretty bad at estimating height gain.)
Appendix B wrote:3.2.2 Height climb measurements are defined in the rules and quoted to ± 5m. That is, it is measured "along the shortest sensible route", which may well be longer than the route used for measuring the course length. This is not necessarily the "optimum route", nor is it necessarily the route which the Planner would take: it is simply the course length route extended to avoid those hills/valleys etc which all competitors will also avoid. The intention is to give a figure which is representative of the climb which a competitor could actually undertake. As a rule of thumb, if a competitor will go over it, count it in; if you're not sure whether they'll go over it, count it in – only discount it if you are certain that all the competitors will go around it.
(Although note also that GPS watches are generally pretty bad at estimating height gain.)
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: Lakes Weekend
2.7.3 Applying the course length ratios – points to watch out for:
• M21 (or Black) probably uses the whole area. The shorter courses may only use part of it, and this might be more or less runnable, or steeper/flatter, than the average
• rough terrain has a greater effect on the running speed of younger and older competitors than of M21s
• older competitors are significantly affected by steep terrain, particularly downhill
• older competitors find dense tree growth more of an obstacle – suppleness decreases with age
• There is no magic formula for allowing for these variables.
The ratios are only a guide and experienced planners/controllers are expected to tweak them based on local information. Eg if black course runners only are 90% likely to avoid a big climb them consider excluding that extra climb from the ratios. It would still be included in the official length though (as in 3.2.2).
- NeilC
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Re: Lakes Weekend
I did some digging around in rules and memories. I don't have a full set of historical rules, but here's what seems to have happened.
Start with Scott's question..
They don't. The long distances at area champs are the same course for M21L, M35L, M40L etc. What has happened is that almost everyone in M21 now runs Elite (some 30% longer than M21L). This turns out to be important for the rest of us.
The BOC rules are much as they always were, but when we went to the colour system Black got associated with "M21Elite". That was fine for elites - they don't want to be running 90 min courses week-in week-out. But when the colour-courses got mapped across to age-classes in the guidelines, they equated black (EWT 67mins) to M21E (EWT 95 mins). Then they used the BOC scalings (more or less) everything else wound up 30% short too.
To fix it, the guideline need to be changed equate Black to M21L, not 21E and scale the colour guidelines for other Long courses accordingly.
Start with Scott's question..
I have to admit I've never really understood why the long distance winning times drop off so steeply.
They don't. The long distances at area champs are the same course for M21L, M35L, M40L etc. What has happened is that almost everyone in M21 now runs Elite (some 30% longer than M21L). This turns out to be important for the rest of us.
The BOC rules are much as they always were, but when we went to the colour system Black got associated with "M21Elite". That was fine for elites - they don't want to be running 90 min courses week-in week-out. But when the colour-courses got mapped across to age-classes in the guidelines, they equated black (EWT 67mins) to M21E (EWT 95 mins). Then they used the BOC scalings (more or less) everything else wound up 30% short too.
To fix it, the guideline need to be changed equate Black to M21L, not 21E and scale the colour guidelines for other Long courses accordingly.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Lakes Weekend
graeme wrote:I did some digging around in rules and memories. I don't have a full set of historical rules, but here's what seems to have happened.
Start with Scott's question..I have to admit I've never really understood why the long distance winning times drop off so steeply.
They don't. The long distances at area champs are the same course for M21L, M35L, M40L etc. What has happened is that almost everyone in M21 now runs Elite (some 30% longer than M21L). This turns out to be important for the rest of us.
The BOC rules are much as they always were, but when we went to the colour system Black got associated with "M21Elite". That was fine for elites - they don't want to be running 90 min courses week-in week-out. But when the colour-courses got mapped across to age-classes in the guidelines, they equated black (EWT 67mins) to M21E (EWT 95 mins). Then they used the BOC scalings (more or less) everything else wound up 30% short too.
To fix it, the guideline need to be changed equate Black to M21L, not 21E and scale the colour guidelines for other Long courses accordingly.
A couple of questions regarding this:
1. Can you fix Brexit?
2. How do I vote for you?
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
- andypat
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