It's almost inevitable that current or potential squad athletes would like full teams to be sent to every competition, at whatever level. But this review is driven by there being a lot less money available in future. So asking athletes who have been through the system (whether or not they became successful seniors) what worked for them and what was less effective has got to be good input.
Given the similar shortage of funds at Senior level, this Review will probably have to feed in to a more integrated review, to get the right balance between JROS, Talent and Senior development and competition opportunities.
Some hard decisions will have to be made, e.g. at the extreme, sending a full team to EYOC / JWOC, while desirable looked at on its own, probably isn't sensible if it would mean only a partial team can go to WOC / World Cups. Similarly, funding both JIRCS and JHI might not ultimately be sensible if it would mean there then isn't enough money for JWOC. And club / association funds that in the recent past have gone largely towards JROS, because there was external funding at Talent and Senior level, might in future need to be more diverted towards the latter.
Some competitions, both domestic and international, might be dropped altogether.
Talent and Performance Pathway Review Call for Feedback
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Re: Talent and Performance Pathway Review Call for Feedback
Snail wrote:It's almost inevitable that current or potential squad athletes would like full teams to be sent to every competition, at whatever level. But this review is driven by there being a lot less money available in future. So asking athletes who have been through the system (whether or not they became successful seniors) what worked for them and what was less effective has got to be good input.
Given the similar shortage of funds at Senior level, this Review will probably have to feed in to a more integrated review, to get the right balance between JROS, Talent and Senior development and competition opportunities.
Some hard decisions will have to be made, e.g. at the extreme, sending a full team to EYOC / JWOC, while desirable looked at on its own, probably isn't sensible if it would mean only a partial team can go to WOC / World Cups. Similarly, funding both JIRCS and JHI might not ultimately be sensible if it would mean there then isn't enough money for JWOC. And club / association funds that in the recent past have gone largely towards JROS, because there was external funding at Talent and Senior level, might in future need to be more diverted towards the latter.
Some competitions, both domestic and international, might be dropped altogether.
You're assuming that the decision not to take full teams is based on funding issues - I'm not aware that it is - and if it were then the decision should, of course, have been taken up front so the athletes are aware.
You're also assuming that JWOC, EYOC etc. are centrally funded - I'd be interested to see the accounts but the enormous athlete contributions must cover the majority of costs. Most of the funding going into the Talent Programme has been spent on salaries.
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buzz - addict
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Re: Talent and Performance Pathway Review Call for Feedback
Look! None of this is about money! We're a middle class sport where most kids can find the money to attend camps and internationals or are at least bright enough to use their nouse at fund raising. Most trips don't need many semi-professionals to support it and there are lots of volunteers out there willing to get involved in camps and programmes.
The more kids that get opportunities the more adults we're likely to keep in the sport. You all have to see the bigger picture. Talent development isn't just about producing JWOC results. It should be more about producing WOC attendees, but even more so it should be about producing athletes that are hooked on the sport that stay addicted throughout college and early careers and stick with the sport through to the stage where they bring ALL their family into it too (one happy orienteer = 4 happy orienteers in 20 year's time). You only have to look at the current 35 to 50 age classes to see that many folk were active juniors many moons ago and are bringing their kids into the sport because orienteering WAS so much fun in the 80s and 90s and still can be.
The bigger the pool of athletes at 14-20 the bigger the chance we will see of a decent WOC team 5-15 year's later.
I can give you a long list of names of people who had poor results at JECs and JWOCs that performed immensely better in future WOCs and WCs. The point is that they gained experience, they learnt from their performances, they worked at it and they came back stronger. What the current selection pattern is doing is effectively reducing opportunities for athletes to see what it takes, build mental robustness and bounce-back and it's shafting them before they've had much of a chance to set out on their journey.
The more kids that get opportunities the more adults we're likely to keep in the sport. You all have to see the bigger picture. Talent development isn't just about producing JWOC results. It should be more about producing WOC attendees, but even more so it should be about producing athletes that are hooked on the sport that stay addicted throughout college and early careers and stick with the sport through to the stage where they bring ALL their family into it too (one happy orienteer = 4 happy orienteers in 20 year's time). You only have to look at the current 35 to 50 age classes to see that many folk were active juniors many moons ago and are bringing their kids into the sport because orienteering WAS so much fun in the 80s and 90s and still can be.
The bigger the pool of athletes at 14-20 the bigger the chance we will see of a decent WOC team 5-15 year's later.
I can give you a long list of names of people who had poor results at JECs and JWOCs that performed immensely better in future WOCs and WCs. The point is that they gained experience, they learnt from their performances, they worked at it and they came back stronger. What the current selection pattern is doing is effectively reducing opportunities for athletes to see what it takes, build mental robustness and bounce-back and it's shafting them before they've had much of a chance to set out on their journey.
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Re: Talent and Performance Pathway Review Call for Feedback
You're right Lard it's not about money - and even it does cost to send youngsters abroad its money well spent. The future of the sport depends on us motivating and not alienating young people.
Apologies if I used this stat before, but last year I checked the planner/organiser rota for our club and 75% have been involved in some way or other with the Talent Pathway plus there are countless coaches, mappers, commitee members etc inspired by their experiences as athletes or parents.
I particularly liked a comment from a squad coach in reply to a grateful athlete - "some day I may even repay all the effort of those who helped me as a junior".
Apologies if I used this stat before, but last year I checked the planner/organiser rota for our club and 75% have been involved in some way or other with the Talent Pathway plus there are countless coaches, mappers, commitee members etc inspired by their experiences as athletes or parents.
I particularly liked a comment from a squad coach in reply to a grateful athlete - "some day I may even repay all the effort of those who helped me as a junior".
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buzz - addict
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Re: Talent and Performance Pathway Review Call for Feedback
100% agree with What Lard said
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Re: Talent and Performance Pathway Review Call for Feedback
graeme wrote:Big Jon wrote:Didn't stop me
Indeed.
The system failed to discourage a strong-minded man with the talent to win a silver medal at WOC who was living in the best area for orienteering in the UK.
You're a legend, but the sport can't survive on legends alone.
But in those times (a long time ago) full teams were taken and every opportunity was given to as many juniors as possible...
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Re: Talent and Performance Pathway Review Call for Feedback
King Penguin wrote:100% agree with What Lard said
Ditto (and what Buzz said also).
The juniors of today are the racers, planners, organisers, coaches etc etc of the future. if we inspire them now they will stay/return to the sport and help the next generation. If we piss them off, spurn them, then we lose them and the sport ages slowly and inexorably to irrelevance.
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Re: Talent and Performance Pathway Review Call for Feedback
Big Jon wrote:The juniors of today are the racers, planners, organisers, coaches etc etc of the future. if we inspire them now they will stay/return to the sport and help the next generation. If we piss them off, spurn them, then we lose them and the sport ages slowly and inexorably to irrelevance.
There are a lot of good arguments in favour of supporting junior internationals, but I actually think this is one of the weaker ones. Sending a handful of individuals to JWOC is not a particularly cost-effective way of delivering an adequate number of planners, organisers, coaches etc fifteen or twenty years later. Even if we inspire all of them to stay with the sport, they will still only be a small proportion of the volunteers we need.
If we want to recruit and retain enough keen young volunteers to ensure that orienteering in the UK has a future, we need to be targeting a much wider group than the tiny number of juniors who still retain hopes of international selection by the age of 18.
Personally, I (think I) agree with Graeme. We need a structure (a pathway?) that works for and inspires all juniors, not just those going for international selection.
graeme wrote:Try talking to ex-juniors: they don't know, remember or care how people got on in races, who won the JK, who is the National Champion, all they've been taught to care about is who got selected. I'll bet not one person would swap Evie or Alastair's BOC title for their selection to a race where they know full well they won't be competitive. Then we wonder why they vanish once they turn 21 and nobody selects them.
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Scott - god
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Re: Talent and Performance Pathway Review Call for Feedback
As far as I am aware the athletes pay virtually all the costs of JWOC etc with their personal contributions. So that is not an answer as to why we shouldn't send full teams...
The team selected for junior internationals comes from a larger group of athletes - they are all inspired to train and prepare for the international races, even if they don't personally get selected. The trick is to make/let them enjoy the journey rather than the destination (which only a few can reach).
One proposal is for the Talent and Performance programme to be split into several groups - 3 or 4 to cover the UK. The travel is reduced, training can be more specific for a groups needs, more juniors can be supported. I believe that if some central support was forthcoming then volunteers/part-time paid staff would appear to help with training groups.
The team selected for junior internationals comes from a larger group of athletes - they are all inspired to train and prepare for the international races, even if they don't personally get selected. The trick is to make/let them enjoy the journey rather than the destination (which only a few can reach).
One proposal is for the Talent and Performance programme to be split into several groups - 3 or 4 to cover the UK. The travel is reduced, training can be more specific for a groups needs, more juniors can be supported. I believe that if some central support was forthcoming then volunteers/part-time paid staff would appear to help with training groups.
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Re: Talent and Performance Pathway Review Call for Feedback
Scott wrote: I (think I) agree with Graeme. We need a structure (a pathway?) that works for and inspires all juniors, not just those going for international selection.
The talent and performance working group is aiming to produce just that.
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Re: Talent and Performance Pathway Review Call for Feedback
Big Jon wrote:Scott wrote: I (think I) agree with Graeme. We need a structure (a pathway?) that works for and inspires all juniors, not just those going for international selection.
The talent and performance working group is aiming to produce just that.
Excellent. I guess I was just a little disappointed that so much of this thread has focused on the question of how many people we select at the very top of the pyramid, which is frankly a little irrelevant unless we also do something to significantly grow the base.
Don't underestimate just how narrow the base of the pyramid currently is. Picking a full team for JWOC currently means selecting 5% of the W18/20s and 3% of the M18/20s who have been to a ranking event in the past year.
If you take appearance in the ranking list as an indication of being an active orienteer - which is admittedly a little unfair on non-BOF members, or those who only do local events - we have roughly the same number of active orienteers aged 16 to 20 as we do aged 70 to 75. While it's fantastic that we do so well at retaining more senior competitors, I'm still going to suggest that this is perhaps not the age profile of a sustainable sport.
I also agree with some of what Lard said, although I'm not sure whether we mean the same thing by it:
Lard wrote:The bigger the pool of athletes at 14-20 the bigger the chance we will see of a decent WOC team 5-15 year's later.
The base of our pyramid is currently so narrow that the only way to grow our pool of athletes is from the bottom: more kids doing regular, high-quality, fun orienteering, without their parents needing to drive them halfway across the county to do it. Only some of those kids will be interested in training and preparing for international races, but in order to increase the number who are, we first need to increase the number who are orienteering at all.
I certainly agree that the easier we can make the transitions up the pyramid, the better. A more "regionalised" performance programme sounds like a great idea.
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Scott - god
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Re: Talent and Performance Pathway Review Call for Feedback
Big Jon wrote:Scott wrote: I (think I) agree with Graeme. We need a structure (a pathway?) that works for and inspires all juniors, not just those going for international selection.
The talent and performance working group is aiming to produce just that.
In which case, it needs to drop the words 'talent' and 'performance'. Personally I find elitist frameworks thoroughly tiresome, as they inevitably fail to separate future potential from previous opportunity. But I recognise that there are some for whom this should be central to all sport, so fair enough. But any notion that an elitist framework is the route to grow participation is utter nonsense, as its very purpose is to do the opposite.
When at least one of the regional junior squads is kicking enthusiastic, regular participants out for not being good enough, it's difficult to believe that inspiring all juniors to remain a hobbyist orienteer for life is anywhere close to their thinking.
Scott's got it spot on. But I won't hold my breath for any changes soon that will actually address the core issues.
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Re: Talent and Performance Pathway Review Call for Feedback
spitalfields wrote:When at least one of the regional junior squads is kicking enthusiastic, regular participants out for not being good enough, it's difficult to believe that inspiring all juniors to remain a hobbyist orienteer for life is anywhere close to their thinking.
The Scottish Junior Squad (ScotJOS) has never been open to all, it is designed to train the top juniors in Scotland and to provide a pool for selecting JIRCs and JHI teams. A totally open system would entail too many juniors (287 M/W13-18 on the SOA membership list in 2018) and too wide a range of skills/experience to make training options sensible or viable.
Orienteering needs a top level training system for the higher performing if it is to provide role models and targets for newcomers to aspire to.
Clubs must provide the vast bulk of technical training for all orienteers (not just juniors).
Until clubs provide regular systematic technical training then newcomers (juniors or seniors) will often leave because they get frustrated with higher level technical challenges and the perceived lack of interest in them from the established orienteers. Athletics manages it, football manages it, gymnastics manages it, swimming manages it - why not orienteering?
If the current system is failing it is because the clubs are failing to do this basic aspect of running a sport.
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Re: Talent and Performance Pathway Review Call for Feedback
Big Jon wrote:The Scottish Junior Squad (ScotJOS) has never been open to all, too many juniors (287 M/W13-18 on the SOA membership list in 2018)
Indeed it hasn't. It provides excellent training for 4-5 kids in each age group, but selection to ScotJos is an annual festival of trauma, bitching and bitterness. It doesn't even have space for people who come first at JIRCS*. Teenagers really don't cope well with rejection, and so, with very few counterexamples, all the juniors who aren't selected for it give up the sport (and don't fill in the questionnaires).
Well, OK, he did get in eventually, but the boy who got deselected quit the sport.
(for the avoidance of doubt, I completely agree with Scott)
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Re: Talent and Performance Pathway Review Call for Feedback
graeme wrote:Big Jon wrote:The Scottish Junior Squad (ScotJOS) has never been open to all, too many juniors (287 M/W13-18 on the SOA membership list in 2018)
Indeed it hasn't. It provides excellent training for 4-5 kids in each age group, but selection to ScotJos is an annual festival of trauma, bitching and bitterness. It doesn't even have space for people who come first at JIRCS*. Teenagers really don't cope well with rejection, and so, with very few counterexamples, all the juniors who aren't selected for it give up the sport (and don't fill in the questionnaires).
Well, OK, he did get in eventually, but the boy who got deselected quit the sport.
(for the avoidance of doubt, I completely agree with Scott)
So how do we provide for juniors in Scotland?
There is Scotjos for the highest standard juniors (34 in total this year), then there is a renewed effort to create/resurrect area training days - open to all at TD3 and above (eg North area, West area, southern 4 clubs, FVO/Clyde etc). Plus there are efforts being made to encourage clubs to put on more training more frequently.
However the truth is that without Scotjos/area groups there is almost no regular, progressive junior training provided by the clubs (with a few exceptions).
Is some mythical/magical group of coaches and cooks and drivers and organisers expected to provide all the training for all the juniors (and seniors?) across Scotland (or the UK if we want to include a larger area)? Or should each club look at itself and ask "why do we exist? - Is it solely to provide orienteering races for our existing experienced members or is it to help expand the sport, recruit and develop newcomers with technical training sessions?"
In short is your club a "Race club" or a "Training club"?
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