British Champs Start Lists
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British Champs Start Lists
I am assuming that the current startlists out for British Champs next weekend are not the final ones, or could someone shed some light on them? I was under the impression they were based off the ranking list and 3min gaps, but for the M21e at least, people are currently all over the place and starting from exactly the same time up to 5 minutes apart.
- WillG
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Re: British Champs Start Lists
On W21E Megan is on her own 15 minutes after everyone else...
- Arnold
- diehard
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Re: British Champs Start Lists
Has anyone else noticed that some courses have duplicate start times? E.g. M50L Paul Gebbett and Tim Wiegand both start at the same time.
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HarryO - orange
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Re: British Champs Start Lists
Sorry all, worked out the problem, copying from one spreadsheet to another, a section in the middle ended up picking up start times for competitor number above in list.
Will be reloaded in the next few minutes.
Will be reloaded in the next few minutes.
- PG
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Re: British Champs Start Lists
Does anybody know if 2 minute start gaps are normal for non elite classes? And are non elites seeded within a start block or is it just random?
How would you kill a tiger armed only with a biro?
- frodo
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Re: British Champs Start Lists
I don't think the rules specify a minimum start interval for non-elite classes. The rules for non-elite seeding only require that the top 20 ranked runners on a course (not in a class) must be kept at least four minutes apart; there's nothing about the start order for non-elites - presumably this will reflect people's stated start time preferences.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: British Champs Start Lists
Scott wrote:I don't think the rules specify a minimum start interval for non-elite classes. The rules for non-elite seeding only require that the top 20 ranked runners on a course (not in a class) must be kept at least four minutes apart; there's nothing about the start order for non-elites - presumably this will reflect people's stated start time preferences.
That is right, the top 20 seeded runners on a course based on their ranking points cannot start within 4 minutes of each other but there is no ordering applied. As much as possible we have tried to accommodate peoples requested start blocks. The start gaps are determined by the number of competitors on a course and the start window available.
- peteT
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Re: British Champs Start Lists
Most of you will have seen the bulk email I just sent (after spending a lot of time trying to make sure it was OK this time), but in case not it read:
"Start times now reloaded. Apologies for the error, which meant between 18:15 and 21:20 today the website showed incorrect BOC long start times for entry numbers from 438 to 1080.
"You don’t need to read the rest of this email, but if you are interested, problem was in copying the list of start times from the master used to generate the bib printing file to a Fabian4 export file. I copied 1299 times into 1299 slots, did some careful checks, found that an omitted duplicate runner in the master and a recent cancellation in the extract meant a section in the middle was wrong, fixed it and uploaded. Checking the upload; only problem was that open starts for non-seeded helpers and splits weren’t showing. Copied 1299 times again and re-uploaded, forgetting that my fix needed to be done again. My lesson is even if I’ve checked everything, if I redo it, check everything again."
"Start times now reloaded. Apologies for the error, which meant between 18:15 and 21:20 today the website showed incorrect BOC long start times for entry numbers from 438 to 1080.
"You don’t need to read the rest of this email, but if you are interested, problem was in copying the list of start times from the master used to generate the bib printing file to a Fabian4 export file. I copied 1299 times into 1299 slots, did some careful checks, found that an omitted duplicate runner in the master and a recent cancellation in the extract meant a section in the middle was wrong, fixed it and uploaded. Checking the upload; only problem was that open starts for non-seeded helpers and splits weren’t showing. Copied 1299 times again and re-uploaded, forgetting that my fix needed to be done again. My lesson is even if I’ve checked everything, if I redo it, check everything again."
- PG
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Re: British Champs Start Lists
This is really incredible.
There was a major error, it got spotted on nopesport, and it's all fixed and sorted without fuss and within two hours on a Friday night. Could any professional organisation manage that?
Bodes well for next w/e
There was a major error, it got spotted on nopesport, and it's all fixed and sorted without fuss and within two hours on a Friday night. Could any professional organisation manage that?
Bodes well for next w/e
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: British Champs Start Lists
On the other hand, isn’t it concerning that there is so much potential for human error in the process? I had thought that by now everything was so integrated that you wouldn’t have to worry about any issues like this.
- Arnold
- diehard
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Re: British Champs Start Lists
One problem is that the seeding is complicated and sufficiently illogical that most organisers* misunderstand it. Once that gets combined with some "these courses start the same way so shouldn't start on the same minute" input, plus families starting at the same time, and not breaking the seeding for open starters, and elites doing their own start list, it all gets complicated.
*its not the controller's problem, although the controller is the one trained&tested on the rules.
Best option is exactly what they did, get as many eyes on the list as you can, as early as possible, to look for errors.
*its not the controller's problem, although the controller is the one trained&tested on the rules.
Best option is exactly what they did, get as many eyes on the list as you can, as early as possible, to look for errors.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: British Champs Start Lists
Scott wrote:... The rules for non-elite seeding only require that the top 20 ranked runners on a course (not in a class) must be kept at least four minutes apart; ...
Which can produce some ridiculous situations, particularly where there are many classes on a course. It is quite feasible for all of the 20 seeded runners to be from the same or just a few classes. The other classes on that course are then unseeded, so that even if there are only two entrants of similar ability they can validly be given start times just one minute apart; if the first starter makes a one minute error on the first control, the championship can effectively be already decided!
It is clearly undesirable for similar-ability competitors in different classes to be able to run together and pull each other to faster times, but for championships the ultimate competition is against others in the same class.
- Snail
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Re: British Champs Start Lists
Snail wrote:Scott wrote:... The rules for non-elite seeding only require that the top 20 ranked runners on a course (not in a class) must be kept at least four minutes apart; ...
Which can produce some ridiculous situations,
Well, actually...
3.1.2 The purpose of seeding is to ensure as fair a competition as possible for the better competitors in a class.
The aim is to avoid people running together for the whole course, especially with those in another class.
So the controller should look through the lists to make sure the seeding delivers this. The "20 seeds" rule is good guidance here, but if you don't think it serves the purpose of 3.1.2, you do something else. You don't want the 20th seed on a course to catch and tow someone in a weaker class to victory - and you cant solve that by exchanging the seeding and moving both their starts back a minute!
An extreme example at BMOC was that the W20Es combine with W55s (because they have a shorter winning time) - we just declared them separate "courses" for seeding purposes. Even more important is to watch out for quality unranked runners (perhaps foreign or expat), and top runners with helpers starts.
All of which goes further to explain why getting the start list isn't trivial to automate!
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: British Champs Start Lists
btw Thank You to the organisers for giving me a perfect start time for my parental split start at BOC.
I posted in the tumble weed of the non-emit JK thread that, in our family at least, the parent with the timed start was given a time that was right in the middle of the start window at the JK. Not helpful! Early or late is obviously better .
I posted in the tumble weed of the non-emit JK thread that, in our family at least, the parent with the timed start was given a time that was right in the middle of the start window at the JK. Not helpful! Early or late is obviously better .
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Crex - white
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