A long, long time ago when I was a junior, junior age classes were:
M/W10, M/W11, M/W13, M/W15, M/W17, M/W19.
Now of course they are:
M/W10, M/W12, M/W14, M/W16, M/W18, M/W20.
Could someone explain why they were changed and when? And do they basically mean the same thing or not? And is this an international standard or do countries/competitions do their own thing?
Junior Age Classes - when and why
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Re: Junior Age Classes - when and why
The classes are the same as they always were, it is just the name that has changed. M/W12 now has competitors with their 11th or 12th birthday in the current year. M/W11 back in the olden days would also have had competitors with their 11th or 12th birthday in the current year.
The Scottish 6 days results for 1995 have M/W 11, 13, 15 etc. Results for 1997 have 12, 14, 16.
I believe the reason for the change was to align ourselves with other countries. No idea whether or not it is an IOF rule.
The Scottish 6 days results for 1995 have M/W 11, 13, 15 etc. Results for 1997 have 12, 14, 16.
I believe the reason for the change was to align ourselves with other countries. No idea whether or not it is an IOF rule.
- frostbite
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Re: Junior Age Classes - when and why
Long long time ago the junior classes were called YJM, JM etc ....
Go orienteering in Lithuania......... best in the world:)
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Gross - god
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Re: Junior Age Classes - when and why
Gross wrote:Long long time ago the junior classes were called YJM, JM etc ....
Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth...
- Big Jon
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Re: Junior Age Classes - when and why
Big Jon wrote:Gross wrote:Long long time ago the junior classes were called YJM, JM etc ....
Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth...
And for urban classes they still stick to Mens Open, Mens Veterans etc. Yesterdays Yorkshire urban at Elland was a great example of the sort of area that allows route choice and even at one time a stop and scratch head moment of "how do I get to that control?" I could have been mistaken for a dino the pace I went around yesterday!!
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Re: Junior Age Classes - when and why
Thanks for the replies and that makes sense. I was out of the sport in the mid 90's so that change passed me by. Now I understand why I was a bit surprised when my son became M12 when he'd only just turned 10
I think some of the competitions around the country expect quite a lot of our juniors technically (eg light green standard for M/W14). Perhaps it's partly to do with this age classification, eg M/W14 is actually aged 12-14, whereas perhaps more intuitively people would expect M/W14 to be 14+?
I think some of the competitions around the country expect quite a lot of our juniors technically (eg light green standard for M/W14). Perhaps it's partly to do with this age classification, eg M/W14 is actually aged 12-14, whereas perhaps more intuitively people would expect M/W14 to be 14+?
- SeanC
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Re: Junior Age Classes - when and why
SeanC wrote:Thanks for the replies and that makes sense. I was out of the sport in the mid 90's so that change passed me by. Now I understand why I was a bit surprised when my son became M12 when he'd only just turned 10
I think some of the competitions around the country expect quite a lot of our juniors technically (eg light green standard for M/W14). Perhaps it's partly to do with this age classification, eg M/W14 is actually aged 12-14, whereas perhaps more intuitively people would expect M/W14 to be 14+?
You need to think of "14 and under", "10 and under" etc - then it becomes easy to explain and understand.
Regarding standards - it all depends on what age the juniors started at... if they started at age 6 or 7 then by 12 they can easily be expected to be light green standard, if they started at 11n then it will be harder for them. But don't pay any attention to the colours that novice junior "should" run, just enter them for a course they can succeed at and they will enjoy it and continue. The colour coded system was designed to avoid forcing everyone to run a specific course however many larger competitions or leagues link ages to colours...
- Big Jon
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Re: Junior Age Classes - when and why
Big Jon wrote:You need to think of "14 and under", "10 and under" etc
Yes, but the naming doesn't help. I find when people overplan M14, it's because they think "a 14 yr-old could do this" rather than picturing a lost 12-year old.
You're quite right about ability depending on experience rather than age too. It would be much better for kids to go on being competitive at a given colour until they've got a win or three colour standards.
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Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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Re: Junior Age Classes - when and why
SeanC wrote:I think some of the competitions around the country expect quite a lot of our juniors technically (eg light green standard for M/W14). Perhaps it's partly to do with this age classification, eg M/W14 is actually aged 12-14, whereas perhaps more intuitively people would expect M/W14 to be 14+?
That is why we have A & B classes at age class competitions.
- pete.owens
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Re: Junior Age Classes - when and why
Yes, agree. Be patient. Do enjoyable courses getting the colour badges. Look for coaching advice.
Top races are also more demanding physically for juniors, as they are for the rest of us.
For the British Long and the three Area Champs the M14A (and M16B) TD4 championship course is recommended at 31-34 minutes top M21 runner time (0.34 x 90-100). A light green at Level B or Level C long distance is 20 minutes top M21 runner time (0.30 x 67).
Expect the best runners to be 45 minutes, and many of the field over an hour. And translating "M14" - some will be in their first year at secondary school.
The M/W12A TD3 course is 4.5km compared to 2.5-3.5km at a Level B or C. So maybe between half an hour and an hour.
Top races are also more demanding physically for juniors, as they are for the rest of us.
For the British Long and the three Area Champs the M14A (and M16B) TD4 championship course is recommended at 31-34 minutes top M21 runner time (0.34 x 90-100). A light green at Level B or Level C long distance is 20 minutes top M21 runner time (0.30 x 67).
Expect the best runners to be 45 minutes, and many of the field over an hour. And translating "M14" - some will be in their first year at secondary school.
The M/W12A TD3 course is 4.5km compared to 2.5-3.5km at a Level B or C. So maybe between half an hour and an hour.
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Re: Junior Age Classes - when and why
That is why we have A & B classes at age class competitions
Ah right, i thought the B was so that we knew junior novices were "deficient" rather than "developing"
"M14" - some will be in their first year at secondary school.
...or still in their Scottish primary school.
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Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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Re: Junior Age Classes - when and why
afterthought wrote:For the British Long and the three Area Champs the M14A (and M16B) TD4 championship course is recommended at 31-34 minutes top M21 runner time (0.34 x 90-100). A light green at Level B or Level C long distance is 20 minutes top M21 runner time (0.30 x 67).
Its a bit less dramatic if you do the calculation for W14 though.
- pete.owens
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Re: Junior Age Classes - when and why
graeme wrote:Ah right, i thought the B was so that we knew junior novices were "deficient" rather than "developing"
No, that's the effect not the intention.
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Re: Junior Age Classes - when and why
I must admit to being fooled by the age class system in the recent past. I remember thinking "M/W14's have to do orange at CSC events, that seems too easy for 14 year olds, shouldn't they do light green", but as others have said, this age category includes 12 year olds, so this is the right course IMHO.
New M/W12s are often expected to run orange in many competitions, this seems even more inappropriate to me. Orange is a properly challenging course with a good chance of getting lost. Are we kidding ourselves that there's a large market of 10 year olds who will like this, even with good quality coaching? I know there are some, but I think this is a minority. The world has changed and children are much less likely to be independent at this age than they used to. It's not hard to find information showing that the majority of 10 year olds still don't walk to school on their own, yet alone run off into a massive forest looking for flags. (eg https://www.schoolhousemagazine.co.uk/q ... ool-alone/)
Having a quick scout around event rules, it seems that competitions with rules layed out on the BO website have it about right. Either the course / age combinations are appropriate (eg M/W14 running orange at the JK relays), or B classes are offered (eg British/JK). I know there are many club and some regional competitions that are entirely colour based - like our local Kent Orienteering League events. Juniors can run any colour they want and still be competitive in each colour competition, whatever their age. These are good too.
I think British Orienteering (specifically the relevant committee for this sort of thing) could take a lead and recommend appropriate colours for juniors running age based competitions at all level B, C and D events. I suspect many of the club and regional competitions with excessively challenging junior colour combinations have been around for a while and the current organisers may not have considered this problem. They would probably be grateful for such a lead and some expert guidance.
New M/W12s are often expected to run orange in many competitions, this seems even more inappropriate to me. Orange is a properly challenging course with a good chance of getting lost. Are we kidding ourselves that there's a large market of 10 year olds who will like this, even with good quality coaching? I know there are some, but I think this is a minority. The world has changed and children are much less likely to be independent at this age than they used to. It's not hard to find information showing that the majority of 10 year olds still don't walk to school on their own, yet alone run off into a massive forest looking for flags. (eg https://www.schoolhousemagazine.co.uk/q ... ool-alone/)
Having a quick scout around event rules, it seems that competitions with rules layed out on the BO website have it about right. Either the course / age combinations are appropriate (eg M/W14 running orange at the JK relays), or B classes are offered (eg British/JK). I know there are many club and some regional competitions that are entirely colour based - like our local Kent Orienteering League events. Juniors can run any colour they want and still be competitive in each colour competition, whatever their age. These are good too.
I think British Orienteering (specifically the relevant committee for this sort of thing) could take a lead and recommend appropriate colours for juniors running age based competitions at all level B, C and D events. I suspect many of the club and regional competitions with excessively challenging junior colour combinations have been around for a while and the current organisers may not have considered this problem. They would probably be grateful for such a lead and some expert guidance.
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Re: Junior Age Classes - when and why
But they do – see page 68 of the rules of orienteering which gives a huge table of recommended course/class combinations for long distance events:
https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/document/046d4fba9e0420c4b619379e58fe88d8/Rules%20of%20Orienteering_20190101_v3.8.pdf
This includes Light Green for M/W14A and Orange for M/W14B
And it is quite right that these are recommendations rather than fixed rules. It should be up to the organiser of the competition to decide which courses/classes to include and there may be very good reasons to diverge from this. Some of the examples you listed above:
The CSC classes are all broad so all tend to be short/easy for some of the competitors (eg W18 running short green or M60 running green). The JK relays are not based on individual ages but the sum of the ages to allow flexibility putting together teams so an M48- team could consist of two M18s and a M12 and a W40- team could be W18 and two W10s.
British Schools Champs and Yvette Baker Trophy also use easier courses for the age classes.
So if your club or region is running a competition where you consider the courses are inappropriate for the age classes then that is who to take the issue up with rather than BOF.
https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/document/046d4fba9e0420c4b619379e58fe88d8/Rules%20of%20Orienteering_20190101_v3.8.pdf
This includes Light Green for M/W14A and Orange for M/W14B
And it is quite right that these are recommendations rather than fixed rules. It should be up to the organiser of the competition to decide which courses/classes to include and there may be very good reasons to diverge from this. Some of the examples you listed above:
The CSC classes are all broad so all tend to be short/easy for some of the competitors (eg W18 running short green or M60 running green). The JK relays are not based on individual ages but the sum of the ages to allow flexibility putting together teams so an M48- team could consist of two M18s and a M12 and a W40- team could be W18 and two W10s.
British Schools Champs and Yvette Baker Trophy also use easier courses for the age classes.
So if your club or region is running a competition where you consider the courses are inappropriate for the age classes then that is who to take the issue up with rather than BOF.
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