I see that the latest BOF CEO News includes another clear-as-mud 'clarification' about the insurance situation with non-members.
Does anyone actually understand what the legal situation is? My understanding was that the the 'member benefit' was public liability cover for the individual for any claims that may arise from a competitor's action. (I have always wondered what this covers that isn't covered by most people's home insurance, but that's another issue).
The latest missive implies that the club's own insurance cover is invalidated by allowing IND entrants who have used up their 'taster quota'. That's a very different situation.
With the proposal to hike membership fees yet again, it seems as though BOF are determined to make efforts to recruit new members as difficult as possible. With no sensible way of tracking IND entries across clubs, and no clarification over the time period over which the 'three taster sessions' applies, the only viable course of action is for clubs to stop all IND entries. (I fully expect a sincere attempt by BOF to refute that, followed by more obtuse and contradictory 'information' that yet again fails to address the core issues).
Can anyone provide a link/reference for a definitive answer on whether the club's insurance cover is invalidated by allowing an IND to enter their fourth event, or if (as previously understood) this is a personal risk for the individual? This distinction is critical for clubs to take appropriate action and provide the right messages to potential new members.
Insurance
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Re: Insurance
I thought the same - it just seemed to add more confusion. For comparison, I think the information provided by England Athletics is a lot clearer.
- roadrunner
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Re: Insurance
This aspect of the insurance is for the non-members during their 3 taster sessions. I read it as the non-members individual's insurance might be invalidated in the event of a claim, if the club does not record their details. Understandably in the event of a claim against a non-member, the insurer would want to know if the club has kept records of the non-members to establish if they are within their 3 tester events cover or not.
I'm no expert, but can't see how this affects other aspects of BO's insurance cover.
I'm no expert, but can't see how this affects other aspects of BO's insurance cover.
- maprun
- diehard
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Re: Insurance
100% agree that BO are really not doing themselves any favours on this point, by seemingly deliberately creating confusion.
The statement re non-members and 4 events is ambiguous. In saying "the insurance is invalidated" it isn't clear if it means just in repsect of that one non-joining indivudual, or for the event. I asked BO to clarify this specific point in the 2019 wording, but they appear to have decided not to! I think it means just for the individual.
The fact that a non-member will not be covered for any claim made against them by a third party (e.g. a rider unseated by a startled horse) after their first three events really ought be enough to encourage people to join. As clubs we need to ensure they understand the risks they open themselves up to by not doing so. But I agree with spitalfields that they may be covered by their, or their parents, home insurance. And children participating as part of an organised group (school, scouts etc) may be covered by those other organisations.
My understanding is that provided the club has met all the event requirements (permission, registration, appropriate officals who have attended a safety workshop, risk assessment completed and signed, etc) the club and event officials will still be covered, even if it is subsequently found that an attendee had been to 4+ events and had still not joined as a BO member. Otherwise the summer holiday 5-6 day events could be in immediate trouble from overseas entrants, quite apart from the rest of us worrying about people attending events at other clubs and perhaps 30 years ago.
The statement re non-members and 4 events is ambiguous. In saying "the insurance is invalidated" it isn't clear if it means just in repsect of that one non-joining indivudual, or for the event. I asked BO to clarify this specific point in the 2019 wording, but they appear to have decided not to! I think it means just for the individual.
The fact that a non-member will not be covered for any claim made against them by a third party (e.g. a rider unseated by a startled horse) after their first three events really ought be enough to encourage people to join. As clubs we need to ensure they understand the risks they open themselves up to by not doing so. But I agree with spitalfields that they may be covered by their, or their parents, home insurance. And children participating as part of an organised group (school, scouts etc) may be covered by those other organisations.
My understanding is that provided the club has met all the event requirements (permission, registration, appropriate officals who have attended a safety workshop, risk assessment completed and signed, etc) the club and event officials will still be covered, even if it is subsequently found that an attendee had been to 4+ events and had still not joined as a BO member. Otherwise the summer holiday 5-6 day events could be in immediate trouble from overseas entrants, quite apart from the rest of us worrying about people attending events at other clubs and perhaps 30 years ago.
- Snail
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Re: Insurance
Ther is something to be said for setting non-member surcharges in such a way that there is a clear financial incentive for repeat particpants to join. Ideally for 4+ events, and certainly for someone intending to go to most of a club's "home" events in a year. This may vary for each club/association, but is perhaps around £2-4 per event for juniors, and £4-6 for adults.
- Snail
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Re: Insurance
spitalfields wrote:Can anyone provide a link/reference for a definitive answer on whether the club's insurance cover is invalidated by allowing an IND to enter their fourth event, or if (as previously understood) this is a personal risk for the individual? This distinction is critical for clubs to take appropriate action and provide the right messages to potential new members.
Ask Pete.owens. The last time I complained about this he seemed to think it was all hunky dory.
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
- andypat
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Re: Insurance
I wonder whose requirement that the three event rule is, is it BOF or the Insurance company?
If its not clear to a seasoned orienteer, how do BOF expect it to be received by a newcomer to the sport.
Do Clubs refuse entry to a local event because they know the person has already attended at least three previous events, and there is usually no one at events these days enrolling perspective members. The first event I attended back in the seventies, I was able to join the local club before leaving.
If as already mentioned, a horserider is unseated by an orienteer, I would think the Organising Club would be sued not the individual, if the person who caused the incident was known and found to be a non member, will the BOF insurance cover the Club being sued?
Lots of issues, but it could easily be solved by using the additional non members fee to enrol them as a day member. I always thought the additional fee was to cover the cost of the Insurance to BOF, I must admit I have no idea who keeps the additional non member fee, Club or BOF.
With pre-entry its fairly easy to see if someone has entered more then three events, but with smaller EOD events, its fairly difficult and impractical.
The other issue could be what about School's leagues that some Clubs put on, is this requirement in force for them, if it was it would quickly end these events.
Talking about shooting ones foot off.
I have to admit it took me two years to join BOF in the seventies, which was OK as long as you did not do Badge events, which you needed to be a BOF member for.
Does the three event rule really include all events including Local events.
We do like to put hurdles in the way of perspective members, the other one I do not like, is the notices of £30, £40 and in some cases £50 for lost hired SI cards, would you let your 10 year old Child go around a course knowing it could cost the earth if they lose their hired card. My original SI card cost £14, why can't SI produce cheaper ones for Clubs to hire out. I have to admit I lost my control card at my first event between the penultimate and last control.
We should be trying to make things simple not more difficult.
If its not clear to a seasoned orienteer, how do BOF expect it to be received by a newcomer to the sport.
Do Clubs refuse entry to a local event because they know the person has already attended at least three previous events, and there is usually no one at events these days enrolling perspective members. The first event I attended back in the seventies, I was able to join the local club before leaving.
If as already mentioned, a horserider is unseated by an orienteer, I would think the Organising Club would be sued not the individual, if the person who caused the incident was known and found to be a non member, will the BOF insurance cover the Club being sued?
Lots of issues, but it could easily be solved by using the additional non members fee to enrol them as a day member. I always thought the additional fee was to cover the cost of the Insurance to BOF, I must admit I have no idea who keeps the additional non member fee, Club or BOF.
With pre-entry its fairly easy to see if someone has entered more then three events, but with smaller EOD events, its fairly difficult and impractical.
The other issue could be what about School's leagues that some Clubs put on, is this requirement in force for them, if it was it would quickly end these events.
Talking about shooting ones foot off.
I have to admit it took me two years to join BOF in the seventies, which was OK as long as you did not do Badge events, which you needed to be a BOF member for.
Does the three event rule really include all events including Local events.
We do like to put hurdles in the way of perspective members, the other one I do not like, is the notices of £30, £40 and in some cases £50 for lost hired SI cards, would you let your 10 year old Child go around a course knowing it could cost the earth if they lose their hired card. My original SI card cost £14, why can't SI produce cheaper ones for Clubs to hire out. I have to admit I lost my control card at my first event between the penultimate and last control.
We should be trying to make things simple not more difficult.
- Dillotford
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Re: Insurance
I've contacted the British Orienteering office to seek clarification on this.
There's no standard additional fee for non-members. Lots of clubs do offer a £2 discount for British Orienteering members, but this is entirely down to the club. If clubs charge non-members more then they get to keep the difference.
Dillotford wrote:I always thought the additional fee was to cover the cost of the Insurance to BOF, I must admit I have no idea who keeps the additional non member fee, Club or BOF.
There's no standard additional fee for non-members. Lots of clubs do offer a £2 discount for British Orienteering members, but this is entirely down to the club. If clubs charge non-members more then they get to keep the difference.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
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Scott - god
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Re: Insurance
I think the "day member" idea is a good one - it seems to avoid all the problems and uncertainties. Years ago when I was in a gliding club (where the risks are signifcantly higher) I think they used a similar approach. I'm sure it's been suggested before, I can't remember what the objection was.
As for hired SI/Emit cards, you obviously want people to take care not to lose them because they're a lot more expensive than they might appear. But maybe there's scope for some sort of insurance option there - either pay £30 if you lose it (as now) or pay £1 insurance and then only £5 if you lose it, for example?
As for hired SI/Emit cards, you obviously want people to take care not to lose them because they're a lot more expensive than they might appear. But maybe there's scope for some sort of insurance option there - either pay £30 if you lose it (as now) or pay £1 insurance and then only £5 if you lose it, for example?
- roadrunner
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Re: Insurance
Even if a club is religiously collecting non-member details at every event, are helpers at registration expected to verify each non-BOF entry form to check if this is their 4th event? That's not realistic.
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HarryO - orange
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Re: Insurance
I don't think the day member idea would work in practice for events with a lot of non members, which is what we're all aiming for. We often get 50+ at our EOD only local events and it's manic enough without trying to fill out 50 extra membership forms and handle the extra admin afterwards. I know that some TVOC events get 100+ non members.
If somehow automatically a newcomer would be given day membership of a club for insurance purposes without any additional work then that might work, but I doubt whether this would fly with the insurers as it would look a bit like cheating.
I see from our non members who go to our local events quite a few people really keen on orienteering, but not keen on orienteering every weekend. Somewhere between 1 and 5 events a year is typical. Perhaps they have other sports, or don't want to /unable to travel? Or see orienteering as an occasional treat like many of us view a mountain marathon or an occasional marathon or 10k? I think we should accept that most of these people will never want to join a club and this is absolutely fine, but we should carry on welcoming them at our events. Paying the extra insurance to cover such people would be a good move and remove the negative message often (perhaps inadvertently) given by the 3 events insurance 'rule'. BO could help to pay for this by choosing to take a little extra levy from clubs for non members, which clubs could easily pass on.
If somehow automatically a newcomer would be given day membership of a club for insurance purposes without any additional work then that might work, but I doubt whether this would fly with the insurers as it would look a bit like cheating.
I see from our non members who go to our local events quite a few people really keen on orienteering, but not keen on orienteering every weekend. Somewhere between 1 and 5 events a year is typical. Perhaps they have other sports, or don't want to /unable to travel? Or see orienteering as an occasional treat like many of us view a mountain marathon or an occasional marathon or 10k? I think we should accept that most of these people will never want to join a club and this is absolutely fine, but we should carry on welcoming them at our events. Paying the extra insurance to cover such people would be a good move and remove the negative message often (perhaps inadvertently) given by the 3 events insurance 'rule'. BO could help to pay for this by choosing to take a little extra levy from clubs for non members, which clubs could easily pass on.
- SeanC
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Re: Insurance
Except that you have to collect their name & address anyway. And if it is largely the same 50+ people, collect it repeatedly at every event. Whereas if they joined you would only have to collect a membership number at subsequent events.SeanC wrote: We often get 50+ at our EOD only local events and it's manic enough without trying to fill out 50 extra membership forms and handle the extra admin afterwards.
But I agree with your basic premise. Charge an extra levy for non-members, to cover temporary membership, which most clubs would pass straight on to the relevant participants. Everyone attending regularly would have a financial incentive to join, and those who participate less frequently would still be covered. (And even if they attend their 4th event in say September, when it may be financially silly for them to join).
- Snail
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Re: Insurance
I think you might have meant to say this Snail, but my basic premise is to charge extra levy to non members to pay extra insurance premium, not temporary membership.
Presumably when Mike Hamilton was negotiating the insurance premium with the insurers a few years ago, he was offered a lower premium (or smaller increase) by agreeing to accept this three events for non members clause? Faced with the option of going back to the members and finding ways to obtain the extra money or accept the change, I can see why he would prefer to agree to the clause and simply broadcast the new conditions to the clubs.
Now there is an opportunity to rethink this and find ways to pay the extra premium. The clause is very damaging to orienteering's development, so removing it it may not cost us anything in the long run, or may even save us money.
Presumably when Mike Hamilton was negotiating the insurance premium with the insurers a few years ago, he was offered a lower premium (or smaller increase) by agreeing to accept this three events for non members clause? Faced with the option of going back to the members and finding ways to obtain the extra money or accept the change, I can see why he would prefer to agree to the clause and simply broadcast the new conditions to the clubs.
Now there is an opportunity to rethink this and find ways to pay the extra premium. The clause is very damaging to orienteering's development, so removing it it may not cost us anything in the long run, or may even save us money.
- SeanC
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Re: Insurance
It might be worth looking at how BMBO deal with this issue.
I do the odd Mountain Bike orienteering event/Trailquest. Probably about 1 or 2 events every two years. Every time I enter I have to re-register as a 'Day Rider'. This is free but it is a hassle. I can see how it might put people off. Here is an extract from the BMBO website:
Day Rider Registration:
•Adult Day Rider Membership
•Free online registration (January - December)
•Adult Entry fee and ideal for those wanting to give the sport a try
•£1 surcharge per event (on-line entry or on the day entry)
•Third Party Insurance during all events. Does not cover Rider to Rider
•Does NOT qualify for BMBO National Leagues
•Will not be included in BMBO collated Regional Leagues (local organisers may make exceptions)
•E-Newsletter
•No Voting rights at AGM
I do the odd Mountain Bike orienteering event/Trailquest. Probably about 1 or 2 events every two years. Every time I enter I have to re-register as a 'Day Rider'. This is free but it is a hassle. I can see how it might put people off. Here is an extract from the BMBO website:
Day Rider Registration:
•Adult Day Rider Membership
•Free online registration (January - December)
•Adult Entry fee and ideal for those wanting to give the sport a try
•£1 surcharge per event (on-line entry or on the day entry)
•Third Party Insurance during all events. Does not cover Rider to Rider
•Does NOT qualify for BMBO National Leagues
•Will not be included in BMBO collated Regional Leagues (local organisers may make exceptions)
•E-Newsletter
•No Voting rights at AGM
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Homer - diehard
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Re: Insurance
@SeanC Yes, I meant "... temporary membership, in order that they are covered by insurance (but no other benefits)". I am not bothered if that is achieved by actually paying additional premiums to the insurer, or if the annual premum is just increased to achieve the same effect.
Someone told me that the insurer makes no mention of a three-event requirement directly, so it is primarily a BO stipulation. But possibly the premium is based on the premise that everyone is supposed to join after three events - and so receive (or have access to) best practice, guildeines, rules etc.
Someone told me that the insurer makes no mention of a three-event requirement directly, so it is primarily a BO stipulation. But possibly the premium is based on the premise that everyone is supposed to join after three events - and so receive (or have access to) best practice, guildeines, rules etc.
- Snail
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