At DVO's Fixtures Committee last week I raised the need for us to introduce Very Short Green courses at our Regional/Level C events. Short Green can still be too long and/or physical for some competitors because of age or physical impairment (or just feeling too tired).
I was asked by the Committee to consult within DVO and with other clubs.
At SYO's Middle Distance event yesterday the Very Short Green course was constructed by just dropping a loop of five controls from the Short Green Course. 9 people completed the course so its was well worth putting on having more than on the White, the same as the Yellow and only one less than the Orange. We have had the same discussion about the Long Orange (previously Red) in the past and the claim that it involves more work seems to win out. This obviously wasn't the case yesterday other than having to set up another map box and have maps printed for an unknown number of competitors.
Are other clubs putting on a Very Short Green Course at Regional events and, if so, with what effects?
Very Short Green
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Re: Very Short Green
RanaldMacdonald wrote:Are other clubs putting on a Very Short Green Course at Regional events and, if so, with what effects?
The last event I planned had a Very Short Green. It was actually labelled a National event, although I don't really see any difference compared with events labelled 'Regional'. There was minimal extra work involved. There is always more work involved in finding a suitable White and Yellow course, usually for very small numbers of customers.
It is worth noting that V Short Green is aimed at the very eldest competitors and therefore should avoid anything too physical. For example, at my event I deliberately avoiding asking them to climb any fences.
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Homer - diehard
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Re: Very Short Green
To return to one of my favourite hobby horses, I reckon the default set of TD5 colour courses at long-distance Level B and Level C forest races should be
- Black (10-14km)
- Short Brown (7-10km)
- Short Blue (4.5-6.5km)
- Very Short Green (3-4km)
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Scott - god
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Re: Very Short Green
Climb is just as important as distance for us oldies (the typical orienteer these days) with worn-out knees.
Steep decent can be just as challenging as climb.
Steep decent can be just as challenging as climb.
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Re: Very Short Green
Homer wrote: I deliberately avoiding asking them to climb any fences.
Indeed, and crossing ditches or anything very steep or rough. Generally, they'll let you know if you got it wrong. And never, ever admit the constraints meant you had to make the course any easier.
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Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Very Short Green
The important thing is that there is a course suitable for the older competitors. Unless numbers are very large you shouldn't need 2 different courses shorter than green - and the guidelines say (or used to) that if there was no VSG then the SG should be at an intermediate length. And if your forest lacks any TD5 terrain that course may also be suitable as a light green. Both SG and VSG should be planned to avoid excessively physical challenges.
For middle distance events there is less of an issue of competitors unable to complete the course - if the W70 winning time is 37 minutes rather than 30 it probably isn't a big deal, but a small field (as at Hugset) means no ranking points.
You also have to look at the effect of extremely short courses on the quality. Just dropping a loop of 5 controls might not sound to be much of an issue - but those 5 controls were the most technically demanding part of the SG course. What the VSG course ended up as was legs 1-6 at orange standard to get into the terrain, legs 12-F also at orange standard to get back and a short bit of control picking in the middle:
https://www.syo.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#177&course=5
For middle distance events there is less of an issue of competitors unable to complete the course - if the W70 winning time is 37 minutes rather than 30 it probably isn't a big deal, but a small field (as at Hugset) means no ranking points.
You also have to look at the effect of extremely short courses on the quality. Just dropping a loop of 5 controls might not sound to be much of an issue - but those 5 controls were the most technically demanding part of the SG course. What the VSG course ended up as was legs 1-6 at orange standard to get into the terrain, legs 12-F also at orange standard to get back and a short bit of control picking in the middle:
https://www.syo.routegadget.co.uk/rg2/#177&course=5
- pete.owens
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Re: Very Short Green
Scott wrote:To return to one of my favourite hobby horses, I reckon the default set of TD5 colour courses at long-distance Level B and Level C forest races should beIf you put those four courses on, there should be something suitable for everyone. Only add extra courses if you think there's a real risk that one of those four is going to run out of start slots.
- Black (10-14km)
- Short Brown (7-10km)
- Short Blue (4.5-6.5km)
- Very Short Green (3-4km)
I think you'd run out of start slots on very short green in Scotland pretty quickly at those distances. 4k is about a green in most terrain up here!
At my own clubs last event Green was 5.15k and the first adult was some Ackland woman in 58min and the only non junior to break an hour. (I think we got it wrong there).
The short green was 2.9 k and won in 25min by a W21 with the first propoer short green runner (W50) in 40mins!
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Re: Very Short Green
Those are the min and max lengths from the rules, which - to be fair - also say:
To put it another way, if you plan a Black course and then plan courses that are roughly 0.7, 0.5 and 0.3 of the length adjusted for climb, there should be something for everyone.
The lengths shown in the table below are intended as a guide. For easy areas the course lengths will be towards the top end of the range. For difficult or more physical areas the course lengths will be towards the bottom end of the range.
To put it another way, if you plan a Black course and then plan courses that are roughly 0.7, 0.5 and 0.3 of the length adjusted for climb, there should be something for everyone.
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Scott - god
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Re: Very Short Green
Completely agree with Scott - as a general rule there are way too many courses at our events. This goes all the way to BOC where we have 27 courses for 1200 people (<50 each) and could probably manage with 15-20.
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Re: Very Short Green
andypat wrote:The short green was 2.9 k and won in 25min by a W21 with the first propoer short green runner (W50) in 40mins!
Bit not real that comment. The thing with colour courses is that they are available to anyone.... there is no 'proper' runner for any colour.
Also I can't see how there will ever be a shortage of start slots on short green in the majority of competitions in Scotland.... a 2 hour start window gives 120 1 minute start slots.
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Gross - god
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Re: Very Short Green
We had a discussion in our club committee meeting about this 2 days ago. The over 80 committee member commented that if the Short Green is planned at the correct TD/length/climb it should be OK but a Very Short Green which is just a 'run' round the paths and the odd dive off for a control is not OK.
I also regularly do Short Green and if the distance plus the climb 'fiddle factor' adds up to nearer 5km than 4km I'm not impressed. However, I appreciate that there are other SG competitors who are less physically active than me and a VSG may be welcomed by them.
I also regularly do Short Green and if the distance plus the climb 'fiddle factor' adds up to nearer 5km than 4km I'm not impressed. However, I appreciate that there are other SG competitors who are less physically active than me and a VSG may be welcomed by them.
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Re: Very Short Green
Completely agree with Scott - as a general rule there are way too many courses at our events.
I also agree with Scott and would support an effort to reform and reduce the number of courses 'required' at events.
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Re: Very Short Green
There is no requirement - thus no need of reform.
It is entirely up to event organisers to offer as many or few courses as they think are needed to meet demand.
It is entirely up to event organisers to offer as many or few courses as they think are needed to meet demand.
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Re: Very Short Green
Gross wrote:
Also I can't see how there will ever be a shortage of start slots on short green in the majority of competitions in Scotland.... a 2 hour start window gives 120 1 minute start slots.
Yeah but that wasn't the criteria. It was one course for everything below short blue, which is green, short green and very short green. Granted you still might have just about enough start slots but it'd be close. And I do think the difference between green and very short green is important and going to become importanter as we all get older.
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Re: Very Short Green
While the number of courses may not be a requirement, they’re in the guidelines and most planners will stick to that.
And when they don’t, they might be told their race is part of some local series (that not many people care about) which mandates certain courses...
And when they don’t, they might be told their race is part of some local series (that not many people care about) which mandates certain courses...
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