I've never been a big fan of urban orienteering.
This thread is a great summary of why.
Liverpool Big Weekend
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Re: Liverpool Big Weekend
spitalfields wrote:Spookster wrote:spitalfields wrote:So are you saying that it's fine for someone to climb over a locked gate that is mapped as open? And that people should be disqualified for running across an open space where the map depicts a temporary building that is no longer there? And, indeed, that it's perfectly fine for people to run across the middle of a graveyard if it's not mapped in lime green?
From the perspective of applying the rules of orienteering, then yes, all of those are fine.
And are you happy that's the case? Personally I find it deeply troubling that the rules of orienteering 'reward' those who indulge in antisocial and/or reckless behaviour, but brands as a 'cheat' someone who fails to run around the outside of a non-existent building... Perhaps this is part of the reason for some officials and BOF being seemingly reluctant to enforce some rules, and perhaps means the rules need revising.
I dont think anyone is entirely happy with the rules as they stand. The problem is they rely on apporioning blame when there sometimes isnt any and often they point to solutions which are unpanatable (voiding races or disqualifying competitors) becuase of their extereme impact. Yes I think the rules need to change. Whehter thats a BOF thing or an IOF thing I dont know.
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
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Re: Liverpool Big Weekend
Homer wrote:I've never been a big fan of urban orienteering.
This thread is a great summary of why.
Ditto
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Re: Liverpool Big Weekend
Homer you can refer back to any number of threads about "forest" orienteering e.g. JEC2018 and see that orienteering by its very nature is complex (on par with the Rules of Golf I would say).
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Freefall - addict
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Re: Liverpool Big Weekend
Yes I think the rules need to change.
Except there doesn't seem to be any sort of agreement as to what the rules should be changed to.
In particular, what to do when the map doesn't match what is on the ground.
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Re: Liverpool Big Weekend
SJC wrote:Yes I think the rules need to change.
Except there doesn't seem to be any sort of agreement as to what the rules should be changed to.
In particular, what to do when the map doesn't match what is on the ground.
Forest maps are analogue - ie they have fuzzy grey bits (runnability, undergrowth, high/low crags, big/small boulders, knoll/spur); urban maps are digital - ie things are either there or not (gate, gap, crossable, uncrossable etc)
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Re: Liverpool Big Weekend
Drawing urban maps is far from 'digital'. Working how best to represent particular urban environments can be just as diificult as any forest scenario.
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Re: Liverpool Big Weekend
NeilC wrote:Drawing urban maps is far from 'digital'. Working how best to represent particular urban environments can be just as diificult as any forest scenario.
Hmm, I think not!
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Re: Liverpool Big Weekend
Freefall wrote:Homer you can refer back to any number of threads about "forest" orienteering e.g. JEC2018 and see that orienteering by its very nature is complex (on par with the Rules of Golf I would say).
I agree that there is occasional controversy after forest races but it seems to me that it's almost the norm after every urban event.
Golf has new rules coming in Jan 2019....
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Re: Liverpool Big Weekend
Homer wrote:I agree that there is occasional controversy after forest races but it seems to me that it's almost the norm after every urban event.
I've done more than 20 this year, including our very low key summer series - no issues. Its just that people are keen to share/develop best practice in urban. In the forest, if someone
runs 600m down an OOB road, nobody cares.
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Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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Re: Liverpool Big Weekend
As far as golf goes...
hit ball with club into hole; can we make orienteering as simple, as saying don't cheat doesn't seem to work?
hit ball with club into hole; can we make orienteering as simple, as saying don't cheat doesn't seem to work?
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Re: Liverpool Big Weekend
Canol have you played golf?
I can assure you that it's not that simple. The rule book is many times thicker than for orienteering. ..
I can assure you that it's not that simple. The rule book is many times thicker than for orienteering. ..
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Re: Liverpool Big Weekend
Apologies I'm coming to this thread quite late... I just wanted to demonstrate;
a) how easy it is to break the rules with regards to sprint orienteering
b) how easy it is to correct the results with respect to your own run when it happens
c) how little it should matter to all but the elites who are competing for spots in international teams
Last month I was running course 1 at the London city race and between controls 23 and 24, the market which had set up for the morning had removed a section of the fence on the straight line route.
I realised that I had run through a thick black line literally as I punched control 24, since a runner who had caught me up was suddenly back within touching distance and I hadn't done anything spectacular.
This mistake probably gave me around 20 seconds. When I got to the download I insisted to my clubmates that I had made an error and should be disqualified. My clubmates to their credit were reticent because they knew I had been helping set up and had probably lost 20 seconds by running around 7-8 km before my own run.
So if you go to the results, you will see that I am sitting at the bottom with a dsq against my name. Looking at the results I can see about 20 "candidates" for also taking the short route - people who mysteriously had their fastest leg relative to others over the entire course on leg 23-24.
Does it make me angry that I was the only one "honest" enough to dsq myself? No not really. I suspect about half of these people to this day don't realise that they ran through a thick black line. Excepting the top 5 on Mens and Women's Elite on these courses - we are an amateur sport. I don't think of the people who were obviously faster on that leg as potential cheats, just others who were out for a run that morning and maybe did not realise that a section of fence had been removed. If they were doing it deliberately to gain positions then I'd feel quite sorry for them actually.
For actual elite orienteering - involving the top 15-20 men and women in the UK competing in competitions which are selections for the world champs/cup etc, it's a different matter. We should be watching these races like a hawk for any odd discrepancies.
Interestingly I am learning a lot about statistics and programming at the moment - it is probably possible to build something very simple which detects if something is amiss with a particular leg given people's performance on a previous leg... watch this space. Although it will be because I am interested in practising my new learning rather than because this actually matters.
a) how easy it is to break the rules with regards to sprint orienteering
b) how easy it is to correct the results with respect to your own run when it happens
c) how little it should matter to all but the elites who are competing for spots in international teams
Last month I was running course 1 at the London city race and between controls 23 and 24, the market which had set up for the morning had removed a section of the fence on the straight line route.
I realised that I had run through a thick black line literally as I punched control 24, since a runner who had caught me up was suddenly back within touching distance and I hadn't done anything spectacular.
This mistake probably gave me around 20 seconds. When I got to the download I insisted to my clubmates that I had made an error and should be disqualified. My clubmates to their credit were reticent because they knew I had been helping set up and had probably lost 20 seconds by running around 7-8 km before my own run.
So if you go to the results, you will see that I am sitting at the bottom with a dsq against my name. Looking at the results I can see about 20 "candidates" for also taking the short route - people who mysteriously had their fastest leg relative to others over the entire course on leg 23-24.
Does it make me angry that I was the only one "honest" enough to dsq myself? No not really. I suspect about half of these people to this day don't realise that they ran through a thick black line. Excepting the top 5 on Mens and Women's Elite on these courses - we are an amateur sport. I don't think of the people who were obviously faster on that leg as potential cheats, just others who were out for a run that morning and maybe did not realise that a section of fence had been removed. If they were doing it deliberately to gain positions then I'd feel quite sorry for them actually.
For actual elite orienteering - involving the top 15-20 men and women in the UK competing in competitions which are selections for the world champs/cup etc, it's a different matter. We should be watching these races like a hawk for any odd discrepancies.
Interestingly I am learning a lot about statistics and programming at the moment - it is probably possible to build something very simple which detects if something is amiss with a particular leg given people's performance on a previous leg... watch this space. Although it will be because I am interested in practising my new learning rather than because this actually matters.
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Meat Market - green
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Re: Liverpool Big Weekend
As far as I am aware, the rules regarding 'urban' orienteering are designed for elite sprint races - where there is a reasonable expectation that many of the issues being discussed are mitigated by taping and marshalling areas which might be unclear. They still aren't perfect and urban environments sometimes throw up issues which sometimes affect the fairness of a race - pedestrians obscuring an alleyway or a kitchen unexpectedly opening up their staircase (for example). Somewhere there needs to be an understanding that 'things happen' - even at the highest level.
It strikes me that the new rules of golf are good. I don't play myself, but the rules seem to be clear, well illustrated with case examples of decisions. There is a paper version, a website and an app, and different versions for players and officials. The IOF/BOF rules documents look archaic in comparison (bearing in mind that the difference in resources is huge). In golf, there is an understanding that players will self-police, administering penalties in situations where they have broken the rules (even inadvertently). The equivalent in orienteering is self-disqualification, but the addition of time penalties might be better as disqualification is a somewhat severe penalty - although I wouldn't advocate this for a championship level event.
It strikes me that the new rules of golf are good. I don't play myself, but the rules seem to be clear, well illustrated with case examples of decisions. There is a paper version, a website and an app, and different versions for players and officials. The IOF/BOF rules documents look archaic in comparison (bearing in mind that the difference in resources is huge). In golf, there is an understanding that players will self-police, administering penalties in situations where they have broken the rules (even inadvertently). The equivalent in orienteering is self-disqualification, but the addition of time penalties might be better as disqualification is a somewhat severe penalty - although I wouldn't advocate this for a championship level event.
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Re: Liverpool Big Weekend
Meat Market wrote:it is probably possible to build something very simple which detects if something is amiss with a particular leg
If you look on WInsplits it colours in "mistakes" which are determined relative to your average time*. So if Kris is 20% down on a leg its flagged as an error - but if I'm 20% down its not.
As a planner, I use this feature all the time to analyse courses (I spent a load of time or this ahead of WOC figuring what elites find hard ... not that the controllers believed me ). A good course has red throughout the course. If one leg has lots of red I want to understand why: maybe it was tricky (good) or maybe it was unfair (bad). Tricky legs usually have the red at the bottom.
I don't know what leg you're talking about at London, but just from winsplits 4-5 and 20-21 jump out as potentially unfair, and 16-17 as tricky.
*Annoyingly, they've unnecessarily coded it so you can't look for "negative mistakes" - suspiciously fast times.
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Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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