I'm planning the November Classic and was wondering if there are any official guidelines on whether junior courses should have written control descriptions in addition to pictoral, or whether it is entirely down to event officials' discretion?
On one hand it makes sense to use pictorial, to get juniors used to the concept. On the other hand written descriptions may be needed to help with interpretation (although some of the written ones may be puzzling too - it took me several events to work out what a re-entrant was!).
The British Orienteering guidelines indicate we should use the international standard for control descriptions, but that doesn't mention junior courses. Meanwhile a quick trawl of event details reveals various large events across the UK have taken different approaches - eg one event had both pictoral and written for courses up to Orange, another had it for courses up to Light Green, and another simply said the international standard for control descriptions had been used.
At present (as discussed with my controller) I've got both pictoral and written on the map for White and Yellow. However, is that what competitors would expect? And what about the separate freestanding copies competitors may pick up? Any thoughts welcome, thanks.
Major events: control descriptions for junior courses
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Re: Major events: control descriptions for junior courses
Pictorial from as young an age as possible. Juniors are expected (have to) learn to read a map which is lots of squiggly lines and strange symbols and can do the same with descriptions.
- Big Jon
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Re: Major events: control descriptions for junior courses
I'd say pictorial all the way - wish I'd have had them all time when I started, really struggled when I went from orange to light green. But have loose written in start lane. And symbol guide at start/registration
At my first event we did a yellow, so pictorially path junction or crossing were really the only one you'd need (in Norfolk, except the occasional ditch, fence etc). As I done harder courses I ask in start lanes if I don't know, or just go to centre of circle and work it out.
At my first event we did a yellow, so pictorially path junction or crossing were really the only one you'd need (in Norfolk, except the occasional ditch, fence etc). As I done harder courses I ask in start lanes if I don't know, or just go to centre of circle and work it out.
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Re: Major events: control descriptions for junior courses
I've prepared the map file for our recent level B/C events, and have used both pictorial and text descriptions for White / Yellow / Orange. Pictorial for the reasons Jon states, but text to help with "new" features for the first time - they will all understand path junction / crossing, but it may be the first they have seen some other features. And if it is a generic "X" or "O" feature, like a seat, changing the text description to something more appropriate.
Using both takes up more space on the map, but this isn't usually a problem - although you might need a different shape/location for the descriptions just for those courses.
Loose descriptions the same as those on the map. This isn't ideal as It means they are wider than most standard description holders, but in many cases this is true with just text descriptions anyway.
Using both takes up more space on the map, but this isn't usually a problem - although you might need a different shape/location for the descriptions just for those courses.
Loose descriptions the same as those on the map. This isn't ideal as It means they are wider than most standard description holders, but in many cases this is true with just text descriptions anyway.
- Snail
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Re: Major events: control descriptions for junior courses
We deliberately used pictorial descriptions for all classes a few years back (at Croeso 2012). Following the event, we did an online survey with one of the questions being
57 replied to this, with 41 having no problems, 4 saying "yes" and 12 not directly answering the question. I'm guessing that answers were mostly given by adults on behalf of children.
The arguments in favour of pictorial only seem to be
* the vast majority of symbols for TD1/2 course (e.g. tracks, roads) are exactly the same as the map symbols anyway - there's nothing to learn.
* BOF Rule 28.6 states "at level B, C and D events, courses planned to TD 1 and 2 standards must be available to be seen by competitors in advance of their start time unless stated otherwise in a specific competition rule", so any unfamiliar CD symbols can be ascertained before the competitor starts.
* written CDs in English are inappropriate where overseas competitors are involved (there were nearly 900 at Croeso 2012).
I believe there's a cast iron case for pictorial CDs only
20. FOR THOSE INVOLVED WITH THE M/W 10/12, WHITE/YELLOW COURSES: No written descriptions were given for these courses; only the standard pictorial descriptions were issued. Did this cause any problems?
57 replied to this, with 41 having no problems, 4 saying "yes" and 12 not directly answering the question. I'm guessing that answers were mostly given by adults on behalf of children.
The arguments in favour of pictorial only seem to be
* the vast majority of symbols for TD1/2 course (e.g. tracks, roads) are exactly the same as the map symbols anyway - there's nothing to learn.
* BOF Rule 28.6 states "at level B, C and D events, courses planned to TD 1 and 2 standards must be available to be seen by competitors in advance of their start time unless stated otherwise in a specific competition rule", so any unfamiliar CD symbols can be ascertained before the competitor starts.
* written CDs in English are inappropriate where overseas competitors are involved (there were nearly 900 at Croeso 2012).
I believe there's a cast iron case for pictorial CDs only
- DJM
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Re: Major events: control descriptions for junior courses
DJM wrote:* written CDs in English are inappropriate where overseas competitors are involved
Fond memories of the written control descriptions at my first event in Finland, where is that kasvillisuuden raja?
Anyway, with modern printing we should ditch traditional control descriptions and use a blown-up segment of map with a dot showing the exact location of the flag.
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graeme - god
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Re: Major events: control descriptions for junior courses
I guess it depends whether you want the event to be accessible to newcomers/ the inexperienced or whether you are only catering for seasoned competitors, whatever their age.
My personal view is that the colour coded system is dreadful for introducing people to orienteering after about the age of 10. Personally I would include text and pictorial on every non TD5 course, as there is a good chance that they will have some inexperienced people on them. I am new to these parts, in my 40s, and mostly run Light Green. The more obscure symbols still confuse me. More often than not, an enquiry in the start lane turns into a debate between three or four people before a general conclusion that it's probably one of 2 or 3 things. That's interesting in itself.
Of course, some may argue that this level of event shouldn't be attended by the inexperienced. My personal experience, with myself, my children, and those of my friends, is that it's the excitement and atmosphere of the bigger events that creates the enthusiasm for attending the lower key affairs, and not the other way around.
Does orienteering want to attract new participants, or would this threaten the status of some of the big fish in small pools? Personally I focus on enjoyment and personal development rather than relative status, but also think that boosting overall participation would be good for everyone, including the elites who will have more people to put on events and drive up standards. But having witnessed my young son being physically pushed out of the way at a level D park event by a guy in his 40s who clearly felt his first place in an inconsequential race was of some sort of national significance, I'm aware that others think differently.
The argument that yellow and white participants can view their maps in advance I think is flawed for two reasons. Firstly, there is an assumption they will remember what's said. That is a big assumption, especially if it's a later control. Secondly, many older children (and indeed adult newcomers) will be starting on Orange.
The language argument is a fair one, and will depend on the specific circumstances of each event. However, having both text and symbols should alleviate that one.
I guess it all boils down to who you want to cater for. Using both text and symbols would seem to offer a solution that meets the greatest number of people's needs. Whatever you choose, you have to live with fact that someone will criticise you for it. But if you've come to a reasoned decision based on a clear notion of who you are catering for, then you won't go far wrong.
My personal view is that the colour coded system is dreadful for introducing people to orienteering after about the age of 10. Personally I would include text and pictorial on every non TD5 course, as there is a good chance that they will have some inexperienced people on them. I am new to these parts, in my 40s, and mostly run Light Green. The more obscure symbols still confuse me. More often than not, an enquiry in the start lane turns into a debate between three or four people before a general conclusion that it's probably one of 2 or 3 things. That's interesting in itself.
Of course, some may argue that this level of event shouldn't be attended by the inexperienced. My personal experience, with myself, my children, and those of my friends, is that it's the excitement and atmosphere of the bigger events that creates the enthusiasm for attending the lower key affairs, and not the other way around.
Does orienteering want to attract new participants, or would this threaten the status of some of the big fish in small pools? Personally I focus on enjoyment and personal development rather than relative status, but also think that boosting overall participation would be good for everyone, including the elites who will have more people to put on events and drive up standards. But having witnessed my young son being physically pushed out of the way at a level D park event by a guy in his 40s who clearly felt his first place in an inconsequential race was of some sort of national significance, I'm aware that others think differently.
The argument that yellow and white participants can view their maps in advance I think is flawed for two reasons. Firstly, there is an assumption they will remember what's said. That is a big assumption, especially if it's a later control. Secondly, many older children (and indeed adult newcomers) will be starting on Orange.
The language argument is a fair one, and will depend on the specific circumstances of each event. However, having both text and symbols should alleviate that one.
I guess it all boils down to who you want to cater for. Using both text and symbols would seem to offer a solution that meets the greatest number of people's needs. Whatever you choose, you have to live with fact that someone will criticise you for it. But if you've come to a reasoned decision based on a clear notion of who you are catering for, then you won't go far wrong.
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Re: Major events: control descriptions for junior courses
graeme wrote:Anyway, with modern printing we should ditch traditional control descriptions and use a blown-up segment of map with a dot showing the exact location of the flag.
But how would you distinguish between the control on top of the bridge and the control underneath?
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Scott - god
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Re: Major events: control descriptions for junior courses
spitalfields wrote:The argument that yellow and white participants can view their maps in advance I think is flawed
The rule doesn't prevent clubs allowing competitors to see any course map before their start. At our local events we keep a full set of maps at registration which newcomers can look at - usually with a helper - to help them understand the complexity of the sport.
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Re: Major events: control descriptions for junior courses
Scott wrote:graeme wrote:Anyway, with modern printing we should ditch traditional control descriptions and use a blown-up segment of map with a dot showing the exact location of the flag.
But how would you distinguish between the control on top of the bridge and the control underneath?
That doesn't appear to matter in urban orienteering - it all adds to the fun and games in the course with some slightly random control site. Check latest CompassSport for more stuff about this type of "orienteering".
- Big Jon
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Re: Major events: control descriptions for junior courses
Scott wrote:But how would you distinguish between the control on top of the bridge and the control underneath?
ISSOM wrote:Control points shall not be placed under or above the main ‘running’ level...A bridge is a structure spanning and permitting passage over a river, chasm, road or the like
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graeme - god
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Re: Major events: control descriptions for junior courses
Younger children who are dyslexic will find pictorial much easier. Why bother with all those words which jump around whilst you are trying to decipher them?
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Re: Major events: control descriptions for junior courses
graeme wrote:Scott wrote:But how would you distinguish between the control on top of the bridge and the control underneath?
ISSOM wrote:Control points shall not be placed under or above the main ‘running’ level...A bridge is a structure spanning and permitting passage over a river, chasm, road or the like
But what about ISOM maps?
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Scott - god
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Re: Major events: control descriptions for junior courses
It would be a bugger of a mistake to get the bridge control on the Millau Viaduct wrong and go onto the bridge when it actually was underneath... 335m below
http://www.highestbridges.com/wiki/inde ... au_Viaduct
http://www.highestbridges.com/wiki/inde ... au_Viaduct
- Big Jon
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Re: Major events: control descriptions for junior courses
Pictorial, for the reasons given by Graeme, Tatty and DJM above. If you must have written descriptions as well, put them on the map (for reference, or possibly for post-race learning) but make the loose ones pictorial.
Reinforcing Graeme's experience, youngsters Janis and Peteris had to have translations from English to pictorial when they first came to TVOC. Mum didn't translate to her native Latvian.
Pictorial descriptions are more precise as well as more concise. They are also often more intuitive: although the younger juniors are unlikely to encounter some of the more complicated descriptions, particularly in a forest event, they are often easier to understand. For example, does the textual 'wall, inside west-facing corner' mean '<' or '>' ? (You'll have to imagine a dot in the crook of the symbol.) Could be important for a wall with a couple of adjacent 90-degree bends. I had a recent difference of interpretation with a planner; it didn't matter because there was no written description and we agreed on the pictorial symbol, but it did complicate the email discussion.
Reinforcing Graeme's experience, youngsters Janis and Peteris had to have translations from English to pictorial when they first came to TVOC. Mum didn't translate to her native Latvian.
Pictorial descriptions are more precise as well as more concise. They are also often more intuitive: although the younger juniors are unlikely to encounter some of the more complicated descriptions, particularly in a forest event, they are often easier to understand. For example, does the textual 'wall, inside west-facing corner' mean '<' or '>' ? (You'll have to imagine a dot in the crook of the symbol.) Could be important for a wall with a couple of adjacent 90-degree bends. I had a recent difference of interpretation with a planner; it didn't matter because there was no written description and we agreed on the pictorial symbol, but it did complicate the email discussion.
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