http://guedels.ch/karten/show_map.php?u ... e&map=2087
Some interesting comments from the long course planner (and some unofficial results!)
JEC 2018
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Re: JEC 2018
Thanks Mikey for posting that link.
I have a lot of sympathy for the Planner. The decision of the jury is obviously ridiculous. There were only 2 options in my mind:
Let the results stand (with the large number of disqualifications remaining)
Void the whole thing
That said, I still don't understand why the course was planned as it was. The quickest route to the last control is clearly through the OOB. This is asking for trouble. I can't see an obvious reason for the OOB but assume there was some reason other than to create an artificial route choice.
If I was Planner (or Controller) I would have come up with something different to avoid the potential (or actual as it turned out) problem.
The Planner also makes a good point about the constitution of the jury.
I have a lot of sympathy for the Planner. The decision of the jury is obviously ridiculous. There were only 2 options in my mind:
Let the results stand (with the large number of disqualifications remaining)
Void the whole thing
That said, I still don't understand why the course was planned as it was. The quickest route to the last control is clearly through the OOB. This is asking for trouble. I can't see an obvious reason for the OOB but assume there was some reason other than to create an artificial route choice.
If I was Planner (or Controller) I would have come up with something different to avoid the potential (or actual as it turned out) problem.
The Planner also makes a good point about the constitution of the jury.
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Homer - diehard
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Re: JEC 2018
Homer wrote:The Planner also makes a good point about the constitution of the jury.
If true, it does seem a little concerning - I can't imagine many other sports allowing coaches to make rulings about the results of an international competition that their athletes were taking part in.
It's interesting that in the OCAD export shared by the planner the purple overprint clearly obscures the road, whereas in the photo of the printed map shared by Eva Jurenikova the road clearly obscures the purple overprint. The former is much less ambiguous, but - as the planner points out - it's the latter that actually complies with ISOM.
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Scott - god
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Re: JEC 2018
If only there was a symbol for Out-of-bounds route...
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mharky - team nopesport
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Re: JEC 2018
I'd always be a bit nervous about using the out-of-bounds route symbol to rule out a viable routechoice, as it's almost guaranteed to result in controversy over what to do about the competitors who decide to run along the verge of the forbidden road.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: JEC 2018
OK, here's a test for you. Is the track through the Olive Green NW of 11 in bounds or out of bounds?
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baronmax - off string
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Re: JEC 2018
Scott wrote:It's interesting that in the OCAD export shared by the planner the purple overprint clearly obscures the road, whereas in the photo of the printed map shared by Eva Jurenikova the road clearly obscures the purple overprint. The former is much less ambiguous, but - as the planner points out - it's the latter that actually complies with ISOM.
With the transparent overprint effect solid black lines will always show though the purple on a printed map even if it appears to be layered on top on a screen - or a digital print. So on the competition map there will have been a continuous solid black line not crossed by any visible purple lines. There is no way that competitors could know from the map whether the road was within a continuous OOB area or between areas of OOB in the terrain. So long as they kept to the road they will not have stepped on any area depicted as cross hatched on the map.
They will have looked for a route on the map and seen the black line.
The Planner - knowing the road was intended to be OOB - will have interpolated the purple lines so will have seen a contiguous block of cross hatching.
Last edited by pete.owens on Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JEC 2018
It seems to lead to an in-bounds car park, so could be in-bounds - if so it would be better if the olive green stopped short of the track on both sides. But equally the buildings within the olive green are clearly supposed to be out-of-bounds, so the road could be as well. So impossible to tell.baronmax wrote:... Is the track through the Olive Green NW of 11 in bounds or out of bounds?
For the JEC competition map it seems clear even on the photograph that the OOB hatching isn't broken when it reaches the road - when it would have been simple to do so. So the road must be OOB. Did people think the crags were in-bounds as well?
The incident looks more likely to be a combination of:
- groupthink / influence, which is always more likely in a mass start event'
- unfamiliarity with the fact that ISOM2017 mandates transparent overprinting.
On the second of these the jury members were perhaps unfamiliar as well.
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Re: JEC 2018
baronmax wrote:OK, here's a test for you. Is the track through the Olive Green NW of 11 in bounds or out of bounds?
I always thought you weren't supposed to show any detail in olive green oob apart from buildings so I'm going to say its a non-compliant map and therefore an impossible question?
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Re: JEC 2018
baronmax wrote:OK, here's a test for you. Is the track through the Olive Green NW of 11 in bounds or out of bounds?
Yes.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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JEC 2018
Homer wrote:I have a lot of sympathy for the Planner.
Some, but not so much. He claims all the maps were checked and clear, then in his article prints a different version: Why? He blames the competitors for not knowing ISOM2017, but himself has to go back and check two days later.
On the other hand, kudos for coming out and explaining his position, and he's right that the jury decision is a nonsense. And surely the responsibility for catching this sort of thing is with the JEC controller? (says the former JEC controller...)
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: JEC 2018
I've now seen a competitors map and the out of bounds areas are a weird mess of patches. The road is fairly clearly surrounded by a large OOB area but there is a narrow passage through the OOB off to one side - up a steep hillside with no suggestion of tapes, so competitors heading this way would have to navigate between unmarked OOB areas.
A more fundamental question is why is the map at 1:15,000 - the competition area is about 12cm x 10cm and that includes the long last leg, the first section map would be about 8cm x 8cm. Most legs are about 1-2cm long. The control descriptions are bigger than the area used for the course.
The event would have been much improved by using a sensible scale of map - 1:10,000 (though I reckon 1:7,500 would be possible as well).
Map scales now have some flexibility in latest IOF rulings, but I guess there are still scale-fundamentalists who insist that "proper" orienteering cannot take place unless it is on 1:15,000 scale maps (though only, of course, for long distance since for other races other scales are acceptable)...
A more fundamental question is why is the map at 1:15,000 - the competition area is about 12cm x 10cm and that includes the long last leg, the first section map would be about 8cm x 8cm. Most legs are about 1-2cm long. The control descriptions are bigger than the area used for the course.
The event would have been much improved by using a sensible scale of map - 1:10,000 (though I reckon 1:7,500 would be possible as well).
Map scales now have some flexibility in latest IOF rulings, but I guess there are still scale-fundamentalists who insist that "proper" orienteering cannot take place unless it is on 1:15,000 scale maps (though only, of course, for long distance since for other races other scales are acceptable)...
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Re: JEC 2018
Homer wrote:That said, I still don't understand why the course was planned as it was. The quickest route to the last control is clearly through the OOB. This is asking for trouble. I can't see an obvious reason for the OOB but assume there was some reason other than to create an artificial route choice. If I was Planner (or Controller) I would have come up with something different to avoid the potential (or actual as it turned out) problem.
H, you are correct in your analysis and conclusion... The planer set up this leg as an artificial route choice and was indeed asking for trouble in the way the OOB was used. The controller should have realised this and either asked the planner to amend the leg or make the OOB more obvious. Finally, the organising team/event director could have notified us in the team meeting that the road leading to the arena was going to be OOB for the runners (often, in similar situations, we are presented with a small map segment to illustrate this and to feedback to the team). Any one of these solutions would have headed off this problem and not led to the mess we ended up in...
S.
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Strider - light green
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Re: JEC 2018
A further very practical point on the JEC OOB debate is that the final details said there would be OOB areas and they would be marked on the map AND on the ground. I don’t know how clear the tapes were on the ground, but if a road is OOB, then there should be clear tapes across it and along it to make it clear that you can’t cross.
Planning a course to involve OOB as a route choice is absurd, when there is nothing stopping a competitor breaching the OOB.
Planning a course to involve OOB as a route choice is absurd, when there is nothing stopping a competitor breaching the OOB.
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