With the talk of Future Champions Cup etc, I was wondering what is available in our sport for juniors between local junior leagues that (round my way at least) can be very good, and the big national events like JK etc also very good.
There is the YBT and Peter Palmer relays of course, but gives only a maximum of 3 events per year. Juniors of course are excluded from the ranking list.
The main offering at a regional level is the regional leagues run by associations based on level C and B events. There are 3 basic types, competitions per age class (ie M12/M14/W12 etc), competitions based on age categories (ie junior, senior etc) and competitions based on colours.
- Which approach do you think works best?
- Some of the age class competitions have hardly any in each category, with the winners sometimes determined by who went, not how fast. Why is this and what can be done?
- Would it be better to have one standard format for these regional competitions, with
publicity and results done centrally? Or would that make things worse?
Here's what I found each region does by trawling round the association sites (please correct any mistakes).
Colour based competitions: SWOA, EMOA, NWOA, NIOA
Age class based competitions: EAOA, SEOA, WMOA, YHOA, NEOA, SOA
Age category based competitions: WOA
No regional competition*: SCOA
*that I could find, but maybe I looked in the wrong place.
Regional leagues - thoughts for juniors?
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Re: Regional leagues - thoughts for juniors?
At many "mainstream" events there are insufficient entries to run a league based on 2-year age classes.
By contract, I know some clubs (e.g. MOR, TVOC, SYO, DEE, apologies to anyone else not mentioned) can get 200 or so school kids at their schools league or local events.
How do we get more to make the transition from the latter to the former events ? I think one key factor is "hooking" the parents to take them to other events, and maybe have a go themselves (that's how I started).
Events in different areas where there is (almost) no cross-over of participants will prove difficult to score - although the BO ranking mechanism might actually work in this circumstance.
Why are 16- excluded from the ranking lists ? I have never understood this. I have heard people say that rankings put undue pressure on juniors, but in my experience, having heard juniors talking after download or in many other circumstances, juniors are every bit as interested in comparing their results as anyone else. When they play football or other sports they do so to win, and have junior leagues, why not in Orienteering ?
By contract, I know some clubs (e.g. MOR, TVOC, SYO, DEE, apologies to anyone else not mentioned) can get 200 or so school kids at their schools league or local events.
How do we get more to make the transition from the latter to the former events ? I think one key factor is "hooking" the parents to take them to other events, and maybe have a go themselves (that's how I started).
Events in different areas where there is (almost) no cross-over of participants will prove difficult to score - although the BO ranking mechanism might actually work in this circumstance.
Why are 16- excluded from the ranking lists ? I have never understood this. I have heard people say that rankings put undue pressure on juniors, but in my experience, having heard juniors talking after download or in many other circumstances, juniors are every bit as interested in comparing their results as anyone else. When they play football or other sports they do so to win, and have junior leagues, why not in Orienteering ?
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Re: Regional leagues - thoughts for juniors?
SeanC wrote:No regional competition*: SCOA
*that I could find, but maybe I looked in the wrong place.
SCOA does have a league, which is based on colour; although it's not exclusively a junior league, only under-16s can score on white, yellow and orange. The rules are here, but as there aren't any fixtures listed yet I'm not sure that it's actually happening.
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Re: Regional leagues - thoughts for juniors?
I agree it was a mistake to bar under 16's from the ranking list. However I (sadly) doubt whether there is the money or pressure to change this, so we need to accept the situation. Also half the juniors will be running yellow or orange, and I'm sure most people wouldn't want these colours included in the list.
My question is basically, are the regional junior leagues perfect and need no change? And if not what changes are needed?
My question is basically, are the regional junior leagues perfect and need no change? And if not what changes are needed?
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Re: Regional leagues - thoughts for juniors?
SeanC wrote:However I (sadly) doubt whether there is the money ... to change this
All the U16 data is already uploaded into the database for light green courses upwards. The software even calculates their points, they just aren't published (or used in the algorithm). It would be deleting one line of code to make the change.
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Re: Regional leagues - thoughts for juniors?
Is it really this simple Graeme? I remember reading from Mike Hamilton that the BO system had over a million lines of code, which suggests some sloppy coding (ie it could take many days to find that one line of code, or it's been cut and paste again and again in different places).
Seriously though if it can be changed, then great. who is likely to be able to make this happen? BO CEO? Board members? Committees?
Seriously though if it can be changed, then great. who is likely to be able to make this happen? BO CEO? Board members? Committees?
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Re: Regional leagues - thoughts for juniors?
From the BOF Strategy for Juniors & Youth 2018-25
'Address specific areas of concern raised by young people and families including
the gap between M14 & 16, urban orienteering for M/W16-, ranking points for first
year M/W16, the mini relay for youngest children.'
'Address specific areas of concern raised by young people and families including
the gap between M14 & 16, urban orienteering for M/W16-, ranking points for first
year M/W16, the mini relay for youngest children.'
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Re: Regional leagues - thoughts for juniors?
SeanC wrote:Seriously though if it can be changed, then great. who is likely to be able to make this happen? BO CEO? Board members? Committees?
The Ranking Scheme is "Competition Rule S".
E&CC is empowered to amend rules (according to the latest Board minutes), though E&CC would probably ask the Board to approve a rule change such as this.
I agree with Graeme - it ought to be a simple change for the website developers who know which bit of the website coding contains this age-restriction condition.
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Re: Regional leagues - thoughts for juniors?
SeanC wrote:Also half the juniors will be running yellow or orange, and I'm sure most people wouldn't want these colours included in the list.
Orange is already included in the list. There just aren't usually enough ranked competitors for anybody to score points, but it usually happens at the JK. I suspect Yellow (and maybe even White) are also included, but nobody got any points on them at this year's JK. Whether it's a good idea or not is a different matter.
Ranking points on Orange at Brereton Spurs are here https://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/ ... course=20& - you have to scroll down a fair way before you find anybody mature enough to handle being given ranking points.
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Re: Regional leagues - thoughts for juniors?
The Ranking Scheme doesn't have a filter on which colour courses are allowed in or not. It only checks whether 10 or more ranked runners finished a course.
So if 10 of us decided to go and have a burn-up round a White or Yellow course, then that course would be used for ranking.
So if 10 of us decided to go and have a burn-up round a White or Yellow course, then that course would be used for ranking.
Frostbite wrote:mature enough to handle being given ranking points.
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Re: Regional leagues - thoughts for juniors?
Spookster wrote:So if 10 of us decided to go and have a burn-up round a White or Yellow course, then that course would be used for ranking.
Challenge accepted - name the date!
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Re: Regional leagues - thoughts for juniors?
Spookster wrote:The Ranking Scheme doesn't have a filter on which colour courses are allowed ...
Yes, there's no filter on course, but there was a filter on "Technical difficulty". Once it was decided to include Urban (TD3) in the rankings, Orange came in as well. So I wouldn't be confident White and Yellow will work. Then again, I never got to see the code or, indeed, the name of the company who developed it, so I had to write it myself based on exports from the database.
@SeanC "If age is greater than 16 then..." Is the line required...
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Re: Regional leagues - thoughts for juniors?
graeme wrote:Yes, there's no filter on course, but there was a filter on "Technical difficulty". Once it was decided to include Urban (TD3) in the rankings, Orange came in as well. So I wouldn't be confident White and Yellow will work. Then again, I never got to see the code or, indeed, the name of the company who developed it, so I had to write it myself based on exports from the database.
I wasn't aware of that, and I'm not sure it would have properly worked. There is nothing within the uploaded file that defines TD, other than whatever the course happens to be called. The courses could be called White to Black, but if I name my courses 1-8, A-H, or M10 to M80, the upload will also work fine.
Here you go: https://www.zygoconsulting.com/recent
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Re: Regional leagues - thoughts for juniors?
Great post Sean just one problem....
So getting back on subject...
The problem is getting the kids to regional events is harder for parents.
The answers are selection and/or representation.
If competing in national competitions is dependent on regional competitions and regional competitions are dependent on local competitions then the status of each is raised in the eyes of both kids and parents and they are likely to try harder to get there.
Being part of a team (school or club) encourages participation and makes it easier to arrange shared transport.
Mini Buzz just got selected to play basketball for Sheffield Sharks U14s in the Northern Premiere league so instead of carting him around the sports halls of Sheffield he's off around the North of England hopefully getting lifts to most of the away matches.
Oh and junior ranking lists would need to be weighted for regional and national events (oh no what have said !!)
… turns the thread into a ranking list debate !!SeanC wrote: Juniors of course are excluded from the ranking list.
So getting back on subject...
SeanC wrote:
Some of the age class competitions have hardly any in each category, with the winners sometimes determined by who went, not how fast. Why is this and what can be done?
The problem is getting the kids to regional events is harder for parents.
The answers are selection and/or representation.
If competing in national competitions is dependent on regional competitions and regional competitions are dependent on local competitions then the status of each is raised in the eyes of both kids and parents and they are likely to try harder to get there.
Being part of a team (school or club) encourages participation and makes it easier to arrange shared transport.
Mini Buzz just got selected to play basketball for Sheffield Sharks U14s in the Northern Premiere league so instead of carting him around the sports halls of Sheffield he's off around the North of England hopefully getting lifts to most of the away matches.
Oh and junior ranking lists would need to be weighted for regional and national events (oh no what have said !!)
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Re: Regional leagues - thoughts for juniors?
I think this is the role the YBT has in orienteering. You don't have to be selected, but it's what I would call an active competition. Since captains have to enter the competition, captains will promote the event to juniors to gather a team.
The regional leagues in comparison are 'passive' leagues. You enter them by accident when you enter particular regional events. I asked this years winners from my club on our facebook page when they found out they had won, 2 said they only found out that they had won a certificate at the end of the competition!
This is the problem with such passive competitions. They might look successful because there are names automatically in the league, but unless they are promoted, people are unaware of them and they lose their effectiveness.
However there are two big advantages of the regional leagues compared to the YBT. Firstly (in my region anyway) there are 8 league events per year, whereas there is only one YBT event. Secondly the YBT only works for big clubs. The required numbers and demographics make it a fairly hopeless competition for the majority of UK clubs who rarely enter a team. Apologies, I don't mean to insult anyone here.
One way forward would be to make the YBT a single event national competition with the same rules open to all clubs. Then have a new team/club competition at regional events with a realistic team size for our small sport (eg 4 members, any junior, male/female any age) with large clubs able to field A/B/C teams, and small clubs less or just one. There might then be leagues with promotion/relegation. If club captains have to register teams at the start of the season, it would become an active competition, and more chance of success (because the captains would need to promote the event internally within a club).
The regional leagues in comparison are 'passive' leagues. You enter them by accident when you enter particular regional events. I asked this years winners from my club on our facebook page when they found out they had won, 2 said they only found out that they had won a certificate at the end of the competition!
This is the problem with such passive competitions. They might look successful because there are names automatically in the league, but unless they are promoted, people are unaware of them and they lose their effectiveness.
However there are two big advantages of the regional leagues compared to the YBT. Firstly (in my region anyway) there are 8 league events per year, whereas there is only one YBT event. Secondly the YBT only works for big clubs. The required numbers and demographics make it a fairly hopeless competition for the majority of UK clubs who rarely enter a team. Apologies, I don't mean to insult anyone here.
One way forward would be to make the YBT a single event national competition with the same rules open to all clubs. Then have a new team/club competition at regional events with a realistic team size for our small sport (eg 4 members, any junior, male/female any age) with large clubs able to field A/B/C teams, and small clubs less or just one. There might then be leagues with promotion/relegation. If club captains have to register teams at the start of the season, it would become an active competition, and more chance of success (because the captains would need to promote the event internally within a club).
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